It takes a village to run the village
All's been quiet on the Western Front, or at least it seemed that way. Truth is, there were many things going on all Summer that involved the Board of Directors and the many members of the community who dedicated their time and efforts to the various committees, such as the Finance & Budget Committee and the Strategic Alternative Committee (SAC).
Those committees have been hard at work, but their work is still not done!
With the Member/Board Exchange back in action on September 11th, at the Sundial Auditorium at 9 a.m., and the Board of Directors Meeting at the end of the month, there is much to consider and talk about.
There are many balls in the air and the end of the year is approaching fast
Bill Pearson has compiled a list of community priorities for everybody to think about because the decisions that will be made will affect all of us.
Here's Bill's short list:
1. Hiring the right general manager,
2. Sorting out the Mountain View remodel (SAC),
3. The 20 million dollar deferred maintenance dilemma,
4. A 40% turnover of employees because of low hourly rates in key positions,
5. The mess with golf and the outdated concept where our success was measured by the number of rounds played,
6. The technology boondoggle and trying to play catch-up with a supply chain that cannot begin to get it current.
6. The technology boondoggle and trying to play catch-up with a supply chain that cannot begin to get it current.
A few items I will add are:
7. The upcoming board's final vote will reduce the quorum at our Annual Membership Meetings from 1,250 to 500.
8. Finalize the Budget,
9. We should push to reinstate some of the previous Standing Committees that have served our community well in the past.
10. And by attending the Exchange and Board meetings you will have the opportunity to mingle with those candidates who are now collecting signatures to serve on the Board.
Many of these items are required to be finalized by year's end.
This Board has really stepped up and truly has the Members and Sun City in their best interest
We finally have a Board of Directors who fulfilled the same Mission Statement as the Sun City Advocates, and that is to Communicate, Educate, and Participate.
I can't emphasize enough how involved this Board has been over the Summer with committee meetings, sometimes several meetings in a single day!!! This certainly wasn't a Summer where the Directors simply scattered to the 4 corners and slipped into silence.
Now's not the time to be complacent
So...in conclusion. PLEASE get involved! If being a Committee Member isn't for you, then simply do your part and be an informed member by attending the Member Exchanges and Board Meetings rather than reading and hearing rumors from those who know nothing!!!
Hope to see you at the Exchange on the 11th, and it would really make me proud of our community if the Board held a Moment of Silence in remembrance and honor of the victims of 9/11. It was 22 years ago but still feels like yesterday!
Godspeed everyone as we start this new journey.
Tom Marone
SCA Panel Member
105 comments:
Thanks for the update, Tom! I appreciate everyone's time spent this summer on the various committees and projects. Can't wait to see Viewpoint Lake this fall!
I hear a renewed enthusiasm in your writing. I agree that our Board has not wasted any time in trying to get a grip on anything that stands in the way of our Members enjoying our amenities. They have been remarkable in finding solutions.
Director Nowalski's article in the SunViews points out the problems with golf course finances and remedies that should be considered. I am a golfer, playing in a women's league on Tuesday mornings, but do not belong to a small group or purchase any type of pass. It's still a bargain. Just as I wouldn't expect other diners in a restaurant to pitch in to pay for my meal, I don't think anyone else should have to pay for my golf expenses. Also, the cheapest rates should go to the tee times that are not during the prime time and, in keeping with the Articles of Incorporation, all Members should have equal access to tee times, even if they aren't in a small group. BTW, one "small" group has nearly 80 golfers. And, as Bill Pearson has stated many times, "NO OUTSIDE GOLFERS SHOULD PAY LESS AND HAVE BETTER ACCESS THAN RCSC MEMBERS"! (And that includes riding golf cars.)
I commend the people serving on the Finance and Budget Committee in digging deep into our financial picture. It sounds like we have some serious catching up to do in maintenance. (Think of the pool chairs at Marinette, as well as our technology fails.) Director Fast's presentation at the Special Meeting was open and honest. I am not sure we should dilute our PIF funds to finance other projects but it does warrant consideration.
Thanks to everyone serving on the committees, attending the meetings, and keeping all of us informed. Much appreciated!
Well stated Tom and on point. The heavy lifting is clearly ahead of us, and i mean all of us. We simply don't have the luxury of business as usual and to keep kicking the can down the road. That game has been poorly played and sadly board members ate the mantra that Sun City was the original "fun city." The assumption one person or even a small number making every decision was folly.
To be clear, while we talk about golf, it isn't the only challenge. It's the most expensive one and will be one of the more difficult to resolve. The gang of golfers getting the best tee times and paying the least for them will be screaming at the next exchange meeting. Apparently they see it as their right to pay $5 to $10 a round even though the actual cost is more than $20 per round.
It would be easy to become frustrated by having so much to do, but realistically, there is only so much that can be done. The key is to prioritize the issues and then fix them one by one.
Bill hit the nail on the head with this statement, "The key is to prioritize the issues and then fix them one by one." Not that we can't do a few things at the same time, but RCSC needs to determine which are most important and get started on those.
Hi everybody, nice to see a new thread to type on that doesn’t resemble the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I just read on TOSC about four town halls. My experience has been that these have a theme, I.e., MV remodel, theater, etc. I did not read anything stating a specific theme or issue. Can someone please provide some clarification. Also it appears that the town hall on 11/13 at Sundial from 10-12 is the same day as an exchange at 9. Is this some sort of plot for a three hour marathon or is there some sort of misprint?
Other than that I have been reasonably happy until I participate in formulating a product that no one will like, the budget and the way forward.
Tom Marone, I saw something on The Lone Cactus blog I need to respond to, please look up what is an enabling statute. Helps clarify regulatory agencies and Social Security and Medicare. You are welcome.
Next Exchange - Monday, Oct. 9th, 6pm
Board has been trying to accommodate working residents by offering some evening meetings.
Unfortunately, TOSC doesn’t have image upload function. The graphic promoting the Town Halls list topics: Strategic Alternatives • Long Range Planning• Budget & Finance. There’s also a drama masks image on the graphic implying the PAC.
Maybe that’s what the Nov. Exchange will do, too? Evening.
Holy sheep crap, there is a lot to unpack here.
Question, the 4% water fee that the other courses mentioned, is that a result of their respective agreements with the AZ water people? If so, that does not affect RCSC as we have not reached an agreement with the water dudes. Consequently if this fee is collected in advance of any agreement by the RCSC, I would say it would have to be held in an escrow account until a determination has been reached, otherwise an argument could be made of unjust enrichment.
The town halls have been pitched as some sort of pitch sessions for B&F, LRP, SAC and PAC. They have also have been pinched as some sort of member exchange. Finally, they have been pitched as member to member exchanges but not Board run. That last one is such a bad idea there is no way to describe it. Someone has to be in charge of the playpen and it should be the Board.
As for the pitch sessions, as a member of B&F, there is no way I am going to be part of this road show as it is not my job as I have said before. It is the job of the Board to sell the 2024 budget as they will be voting on it. Mine is strictly an advisory capacity. In spite of that, if what Linda McIntyre says is true (which I highly doubt) that I have a fiduciary capacity as a committee member and can be sued, I want a by law stating that I am totally indemnified for any and all final judgements, costs, fees and other expenses or I am resigning. I refuse to put up my personal assets against some dimwits who can’t tell the different between a balance sheet and a balance beam in some cockamamie lawsuit and there are a lot of them out there. Also, good luck securing committee members without this protection. BTW, I was never appointed, I originally became a member because I showed up to a meeting, said I want to be a member and chair said fine. Hardly what you would call vetting and appointing.
A member posted that an increase in fees and/or PIF should not be increased until all avenues have been considered. While an intriguing idea, this year’s budget had a $2M deficit which required moving $2M from cash reserve to operational. I know members are slobbering over the $12+M cash carry forward but how does that pay for $20M in deferred maintenance plus maintenance in the future? How does RCSC build a reserve (asset preservation fund) with zero based budgeting, salary increases next year for employee retention and hiring personnel to management $3-5M in maintenance projects next year without fee and PIF increases? RCSC can’t close rec centers or golf courses as they are contractually liable to keep them operating. Definitely a Gordian knot since some members want to solve future problems utilizing the problems of the past. It’s an ugly truth but we have to face it.
Finally, I would presume the candidate forums will be held the first week in November as after that is a pretty full dance card.
Candidate Forums @ Sundial
Mon. 10.23. 2pm - 4 pm
Wed. 10.25. 6pm - 8pm
Meet & Greet 30 minutes prior
Dave, I don't care what you call it (i.e. enabling statute) Laws that violate the Constitution are unconstitutional.
WE THE PEOPLE are the sovereign and WE THE PEOPLE only gave legislative power to Congress. Where does the Constitution state that Congress has the power to give that authority to other agencies to make the laws that only THEY were constitutionally authorized to do so? Congress makes laws and not additional legislators!
Blame it on the Commerce Clause which seems to be the catch-all enumerated power authorizing a good portion of those agencies and departments.
Are there any prospective candidates now?
Which board members are leaving this year and are they eligible to run again?
Thank you.
I thought the former GM had an agreement settled with the ADWR already.
Yikes.
You're right. The board or someone from the board should be in charge to keep people on topic and maintain civility. I hope they rethink this.
I am ever grateful to you, Treasurer Fast and the rest of the B&F committee for working so hard and facing such difficult decisions.
The board should take this advice and present it and come up with what they will and won't do. Once B&F is done it's the ball is in their court.
Thank you.
I stand corrected having read recent comments on TOSC.
Looks like the LRPC is moderating.
There is nothing in the Articles or By-Laws that says that they cannot do this. I think as long as there is a a strong moderator to keep the members on topic, it could be a good thing. Just because somethings hasn't been tried before doesn mean it should automatically be ruled out.
I'm pretty sure anyone that serves on our committees or boards like yourself are also protected by state statutes.
Apologies for the typos and poor spelling.
No candidate announcement until candidate packets are turned in by Oct. 6th and verified.
2023 FOUR Candidacies Available
Term ends: * Nowakowski (elected for 2 years of McAdam’s terminated remaining 21-23 term)
Appointed 1 year:
*Darbut, *Nichols (Lehrer & Wilson end 23)
*Rough (Lenefsky end 24)
Interested in running for the Board of Directors?
Candidate Packets are available at the Lakeview Center Corporate Office (lower level).
Must represent RCSC Photo ID. Completed packets must be returned by noon on Friday, October 6, 2023.
For more information, contact the Board Office at 623-561-4620.
Qualifications to run for a position on the Board can be found in the RCSC Corporate Bylaws online at: https://suncityaz.org/ corporate-bylaws/ - Article VII; Section 4.
VOTE
Monday, November 6 - Tuesday, December 12, 2023
There were a few prospective candidates who attended the Candidate Information Sessions and actually were collecting signatures.
I have heard that some have since dropped out.
I know that Jim Rough and Jeff Darbut are running again but not sure how many others there are out there.
You can usually see who's running because those people show-up at Member/Board Exchanges and Board Meetings to collect signatures. So far I have seen none!!!!
Why don't you run?
You don't have an agenda and you don't belong to a special interest club that wants something.
I think you'd be fair and do what is right for all of Sun City from comments that you have posted and letters to the Editor.
Also, you're knowledgeable about RCSC rules and RRO.
Seriously, please consider it.
Kinda hard to keep up the past several years. Thanks.
Tom, my advice for today is to stay away from Constitutional Law as you know next to nothing about it unless you Google something. Yes the Commerce Clause is relevant as these agencies deal with Interstate Commerce if you really think about it. Also, I peg you as one of those phrase guys wherein you take a partial phrase and ignore the rest. Two examples, the Preamble to the Constitution after that we the people thing and the Second Amendment part on owning guns but I doubt you have read the Constitution regarding militias, just that nasty part of the Second Amendment.
You want to talk Constitutional Law without sounding ill informed, go buy a casebook and learn something.
Which of these cases advance CRT:
Amistad Africans
Dred Scott
Ex Parte Mulligan
Plessy v. Ferguson
Chinese Exclusion Act
Sacco and Vanzetti
Kuramatsu v. United States
Brown v. Board of Education
Arizona v. Miranda
Illinois v. Escobedo
Bakke v. board of Education
U.S. v. Rosenbergs
Have fun storming the castle.
The only mistake I made Dave was responding to your post.
You never cease to amaze me how, from your high horse, you manage to talk down to every person you engage with.
And now, you're trying to change the conversation from the separation of powers to critical race theory and is just another attempt at trying to prove just how smart you are in every topic!
Dave, you are nothing more than a cockwomble. Go look it up, but oh! You probably already know what it means since you know everything!
I'm am done with your arrogance.
Tom, you should take advice from Mark Twain, It is better to remain a fool then to open one’s mouth and erase all doubt. Admit, you have no idea what you are talking about and from The Lone Cactus you are just another kool aid drinking MAGA trying masquerade as a serious person.
Evidently knowledge is arrogance, so I know things you don’t. You know things I don’t but then I don’t go treading in your sandbox whatever that is showing off what I don’t know.
I read history and I’m right or I learn.
Have a nice day.
Dave once more. I sent you an email explaining my comments, and an article backing up my reasons. While Finance members are not elected we/they serve as advisors to the Board in all financial matters to ensure THEY meet their fiduciary responsibilities. You're right - we therefore wouldn't be held to the same legal standard, but we better be providing advice according to best practices, laws governing tax exempt organizations, and RCSC bylaws and Articles. Finance and Audit Committees play key roles in seeing that fiduciary responsibilities are met by the Board - these two committees serve as key advisors. That was my point. However, I'm not convinced that you are convinced that expertise exists.
Also, a member may volunteer for a committee, but a Chair still has to make an official acknowledgement. Like a lot of other things, procedures need to become more formalized, but it doesn't change the facts. Members are still technically appointed.
Finally, if the Finance Committee is asked to participate in a Town Hall to discuss the budget as a way to help inform the members about the process, how we made some of the decisions, etc., you don't feel it's part of our "job" to share that process. I don't see the next few weeks as "selling" anything - this is an opportunity to educate and inform the members about the state of our finances and what impact they may have on the future. I see that as part of our ongoing responsibility.
Thank you, Linda, for stating the valid points of a committee member's responsibilities. RCSC is fortunate to have you giving your time, experience and expertise to this important committee. I value what you say!
SOMEONE doesn’t know how to “Play well with others.”
…“to be amiable and cooperative when interacting with others.”
The phrase is a common statement of praise for school children and is often used in the negative to describe adults who are competitive or aggressive in their interactions.
I've watched the back and forth regarding a committee having liability and i would argue, they don't. Committees have no ability to do anything other than making recommendations. Our documents as well as most non-profits, call for errors and omissions insurance to be provided which protects board members in most cases (not all).
With my opinion out of the way, i agree with Linda; if you are a committee member you should have your butt front and center when your committee's ideas are presented to the membership. It's called ownership and if you are a responsible adult and serving in that capacity, you should be in the room and able to articulate how and why you arrived at the position you did.
To be even more clear, there may well be recommendations being made by the board regarding the budget and finance committee's work that will not be unanimous. I think it is a horrible idea to roll PIF into general ledger. HORRIBLE. On the other hand, the suggestion to raise the PIF to 5K with a $1000 directed to to designated capital projects with 4K staying with PIF is a brilliant idea. BRILLIANT.
It's fairly obvious the new board is asking/expecting committees to be more involved. If, as a committee member, you aren't willing to be held responsible and accountable, then step aside. It doesn't matter how smart you are, if you won't take ownership of your efforts.
Well, Bill, thank you for backing me up on the PIF thing. Too many members see the the strong cash position and PIF as something to blow it all now with no knowledge of funding the Capital Reserve (asset preservation fund) or Cash Reserve which speaks for itself.
As for me going out on a road show, I learned my lesson last year with the By Law committee. I found that no explanation was going to satisfy the masses even as we made concessions on petition signing on RCSC property. Now I want to go through this again why we need to increase fees because we have to replenish funds, the budget cannot be covered with current fee. We still do not have the Capital Reserve guy scheduled for his presentation which is terrific because Board Directors seem that their outside interests are more important. This is a perfect example of why I thought Zoom calls were a bad idea. Commitment! Meanwhile, SAC and LRP are sitting around waiting to see what the budget will be.
Finally, there are enough SCAs at the B&F meetings taking notes that I think I have made my positions quite clear, you know Communicate, Educate , Participate. Besides no one really like my direct approach on important matters!, so maybe it’s best I not participate.
Dave,
Hopefully the Budget and Finance Committee isn't a reflection of last year's ByLaws committee. That was the most dysfunctional and frustrating ordeal I have been a part of in my 40+ years of combined experience on Boards and committees.
Yes, you and another committee member made concessions on allowing petition signing on RCSC property, but still you would were adamant and unyielding that any Board candidate had to attend a meeting at a time and date set by RCSC so the rest of us conceded on that item against our better judgement.
I will also remind you that four of last year's Directors, not the committee members, killed the entire Bylaws revision because they refused to allow the gathering of signatures on the RCSC property. That included our committee's chairperson. As Directors, that was their right to do so, but they paid the price in the following election for being so uncompromising on the subject. Basically the whole experience was a sham, from disallowing Members to observe our meetings because someone wrote something on a blog that the Directors didn't like, to some committee members making decisions outside of our meetings without consulting everyone, to only learning at the eleventh hour that the Board was going to blackmail us into doing what they wanted. It's true that President Lehrer didn't attend any of our meetings, but she certainly had her input through the cochairperson leading our committee. But that is in the past........I recently threw away all of my papers because I consider them irrelevant at this point. Even if anyone needs to look something up, it is saved on my computer. I choose not to spend the time doing that, so we can agree to disagree.
I am pleased that you have expertise for the insurance committee. Plus, congratulations for attaining your insurance certification which was not an easy feat. To answer one of your earlier questions, I do not know of any other insurance brokers nor can I ask my husband for recommendations because he is deceased. You know a whole lot more about insurance details than I would ever want to.
I tend to look at the big picture before delving into details. It is appropriate to consider looking at other vendors after a dozen or so years, just to assure our Members that they are getting the best buck for their dollars, whether it be a vendor supplying fertilizer for our golf courses, fuel for RCSC vehicles, architectural service, building contractors, legal advice, insurance, etc. Nothing personal about that suggestion.
It is up to you whether to participate in the presentation of the F&B's work over the summer. However, if you do, stand up for your contributions to the committee even if you are in the minority. That's what makes the world go 'round. Just don't lose sight of the big picture. Some advice I once received was to "go from the general to the specific". Some people can get so bogged down in details that the big picture gets fuzzy.
See you sometime in November!
Janet
p.s. Thanks for you recommendations on things to do in Chicago. However we were there for a birthday celebration so we didn't get into the city. One great discoveries on our drive was Galena, IL. I love those quaint towns. It reminded me of Jerome, Cottonwood, Clarkdale, and Bisbee AZ. If you haven't already done so, read the book "Empty Mansions" about one of the descendants of William Clark the owner of the mines and smelter in Clarkdale. Very interesting read!
Janet, read Devil in the White City. It’s so Chicago.
I have. You are right, it’s a very good book.
Pickleball in Sun City
Today’s article in the Phoenix Business Journal has the following highlights:
USA Pickleball, the Valley-based national governing body of pickleball, announced Monday it has launched a “quiet category” for pickleball products in response to the volley of noise complaints about the sport nationwide.
Pickleball is one of the fastest-growing professional and recreational sports in the country, but as more and more people start playing at neighborhood parks and other public courts, noise complaints have started to come in.
A feature report in the New York Times earlier this year interviewed residents who said pickleball games have replaced leaf blowers as the No. 1 neighborhood nuisance, or as the owner of a new pickleball noise abatement consultancy put it, "It creates [sonic] vibrations in a range that can be extremely annoying to humans."
The Strategic Alternatives Committee, which is developing plans for the Mountain View Recreation Center, has the challenge of adding more pickleball ball courts while respecting the nearby residents who must live with the noise.
Until manufacturers can reduce the noise, adding more pickleball courts in Sun City will be opposed by nearby residents.
https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2023/09/26/usa-pickleball-noise-complaints-quiet-equipment.html
Interesting comment Jeff. I attended one of the town hall meetings at Mountain View and watched the other one on line and i don't recall a single comment regarding the noise created from the pickleball courts at either meetimg. I could be mistaken, but if memory serves me, those videos are on the SAC website and so if i'm wrong please point it out to me.
During all this time discussing Mountain View, I don’t recall neighbors expressing pickleball noise concerns at any RCSC Board or Exchange meeting.
There were concerns brought up about neighborhood noise when plans to convert the Lakeview tennis courts to pickleball was introduced.
Perhaps the proximity of courts to homes at Mountain View is not an issue as you suggest?
What happened to the golf post(s) on your Facebook page? I wanted to read them this evening but they have been deleted. ?
What golf posts? Which facebook page?
Maybe the ones that appeared this morning after your "historical photo" post?
The Sun City Advocates facebook page. Someone with the name Atwood? had 2 posts about golf. They were long and I didn't have time to read during the day. I wanted to come back later at night last night and read them but now they have both been deleted.
Why? As of yesterday morning I didn't see any abusive responses so Idk why the posts are gone. Deleted by the author or the admin on the Advocates?
Anonymous, Those comments were overkill. Too bad the person took so much time posting obscure ways to enforce policies. You didn't miss anything!
Thanks, Janet.
Tom Marone, sorry if my arrogance is showing but golf expenses including depreciation (which is a tax credit on a fixed asset purchased) is charged to golf. You would know this if you reviewed the CPA fiscal year end (FYE) audited statement instead of those stupid 990s. There is a spread sheet after accountants notes which is a profit and loss (P&L) for all the individual entities that make up the RCSC. I would show you the last three years but my arrogance cooties may rub off on you and you would actually learn something. Deus illud volt.
I didn't remove Atwood's comments, he may have. In fact he told me he was going to post them there which was fine by me.
Seeing as you jumped in here Dave and started talking, let's carry this conversation a little further, help me understand. When one of the directors says he wants to get our golf courses back to their once pristine stature and indicates the way to do that is via funding from capital expenses; where are you saying those multiple millions of dollars are coming from?
Because the last time i looked capital expenses come directly from members lot assessments. From sitting in the Budget and Finance meeting, we know that a $50 a year increase generates 1.8 million dollars in revenue. So to collect that sum for golf, the RCSC would need a raise the fees by more than $50 a year just for golf capital projects.
And given said director is talking as much as 10 million dollars to get our courses all gussied up, that would mean we would have to do it for 5 years in a row (at 2 million dollars a year). And, here's the real joy in this proposal; those capital investments wouldn't/shouldn't be billed back against golf to set rates, we would only use golf's yearly operating expenses. After all, we don't want to deprive members their right to $5 rounds of golf...let the members who have never stepped a golf course absorb those massive increases.
Perhaps i'm missing something here Dave and i would love to have you set me straight. The last time i looked, as a not for profit corporation, write-offs were meaningless. In fact, it's exactly why we did the solar purchase the way we did. I get the value of depreciating our assets because of the smoothing affect on our yearly budgeting process, but ultimately if we are going to spend monies, it has to come from somewhere? Our revenue streams are pretty easily identifiable; golf, bowling, rentals, lot assessments and PIF are the primary.
By the way, that same director was wildly supporting doing away with PIF as a free standing entity and just putting all the money in a single account. Easier access with less criteria would be my guess, but hell he was a CFO and i was a simple union thug. In fairness, you voted against that stupid idea. Well done.
Bill, happy to try and clear things up the best I can.
First, sometimes financial talk is double talk. I know you are surprised to find that out. I have also deduced who the director is from your post. That said, to keep our courses in pristine condition we would have to prevent golfers actually using them. Told you I was very literal.
Generally golf expenses come from what is called operational expenses, that is money from the annual assessments. Capital expenditures are expenses for Capital improvements like new irrigation, equipment, buildings, but also new sand for the traps, etc. but the director slyly does not state where the money is coming from. Like the Godfather lawyer, he makes you an offer you don’t understand.
Since you have been very attentive at the B&F meetings you are aware that three funds we discussed that needed beefing up were Capital Reserve (Asset Preservation Fund), Cash Reserve (cold hard cash) and PIF. Most of the conversation has centered on Capital Reserve projects, the $20M backlog on R&M. How do we catch up while funding Capital Reserve. This is where the rubber meets the road. My position and I know of two other committee members who agree with me that the cash carry forward (not an accounting term) is to be used over a five year plan and totally depleted during this plan. We believe while depleting cash carry we will use part of the assessments to fund the Capital Reserve for R&M beyond the five year plan while increasing the transfer fee to $1,000 to be part of this, thereby causing any additional fee increases to be moderate or none at all.
I realize the committee has not really talked about bringing the Cash Reserve up to snuff as it is terribly underfunded but I believe the consensus sees the R&M most important. This is the rainy day fund. First things first.
As for PIF, John Fast wants to change the terms of PIF which I vehemently oppose. I see it as the first step to eventually dumping it into the kitty with no safeguards. This idea is so insane that I have no words to describe it other than it could be a potential lawsuit on breach of fiduciary responsibility if misused.
I hope this addresses your concerns. As for the CFO Director, I am not intimidated neither should you as I have dealt with bigger financial dudes and bank officers than this person. You may be a union thug but an honest one and I may be just a Surety Bond underwriter but I was trained by the best in the business and can see third rate hustlers coming a mile away.
I, too, would hate to see the PIF budget integrated with other accounts. That would be a slippery slope to head down. Glad we are in agreement, Dave!
Lots of stuff to get my head around from your last post Dave, most of it i agree with. Let me try and summarize this remark "sometimes financial talk is double talk." The comment immediately put a smile on my face as i have tried to get my head around the whole capital expenses piece of the pie.
With some reading written by the IRS, it's clear we (even as a non-profit corp), have to follow general accounting procedures. My best take is you have been trying to get us non-technical money guys to understand the concept of depreciating our expenses. I got that early on when it became clear the 990's included PIF long term expenditures smoothed out over their legally allowable useful life; as well as capitalized expenses.
I also have come to understand capital investments also need to be smoothed out (depreciated) over their useful life. It's clearly a function of accounting that must be done in accordance with set standards within the industry.
Now for the fly in the ointment (feel free to correct me if i am wrong). For profit corporations have the same obligations regarding standards but they do it for a wholly different reason. For profit companies can write off depreciated expenses and investments to impact their taxable liabilities.
On the other hand, non-profits, don't enjoy the same potential tax windfall from these accounting practices even though they have to follow them. Hence, any monies necessary for capital investments, capital reserves or in our case, PIF all have to come basically from the funding streams we all are familiar with; lot assessments, golf, 10 pin bowling, PIf or rentals. There's a couple of lessor revenue streams but they are minimal at best.
As far as the idea/suggestion to do away with PIF, it might have been the dumbest idea ever floated. I know said director touting it was drooling over the opportunity to shovel tens of millions of dollars into golf, but it never had a snowballs chance in hell of passing the membership. He actually told me he could show everyone just how brilliant the idea was. Yikes.
The biggest problem is the golf doom loop we are caught up in. We bought Jan's magic elixir on golf being our salvation. Unfortunately coming along with massive investments was the folly of cheap golf somehow working into making it all come together. It had no chance.
It's like everything else we have been sucked into...a community run on the cheap can exist forever and not experience any shortcomings. Crazy thinking and easy to see why we are where we are today. Big hole to dig out of and it will take a village (community) to get it done.
Bill, you are starting to get it. To make Capital expense even simpler, any improvement, even new chairs is a Capital expense although it may come from the operating budget. Obviously larger items such as the Viewpoint lake resealing is not only a Capital expense but also an expense from PIF as that is where the funds originated. This is why the Director’s statement on golf was Capital expense without providing any details. Double talk.
Depreciation is both a minus and a positive on a balance sheet. That is why golf appears to lose money AFTER depreciation but comes out a plus when applied for tax purposes. Think of it this way, on the tax return you file every year you deduct money spent on doctors, medicine, etc. whatever is allowed. This appears as a negative when your gross income is adjusted to net income. Now when the money taken out for taxes during the is compared to tax liability for the net income, you might receive a tax refund. It sounds complicated but just think in terms of your tax return.
I am very glad we agree on this PIF thing. The Director pitching this idea is so wrong because there is no explanation that makes this palatable. As we underwriters said during my career, this is some jive ass bullshit and that’s what it is. If this Director is running for reelection, then the person should be defeated big time. If the Director has an idiotic plan like this, what other fiscal nonsense will surface if re-elected? Sorry if I am on a rant but this idea is very dark and could spell serious trouble down the road. Sounds like financial engineering and that seems to work out badly for the business.
Look forward to further conversations with you. I will miss the exchange next Monday and the B&F meeting due to I have friends from The Netherlands visiting for a couple of weeks and have never been to the U.S. John Fast is aware of this and understands. A Zoom thing is out of the question. See you at the town hall though.
Notes from the high country, just read TOSC and a lot has happens in my absence.
First to my good friend Tom Marone, I signed conflict of interest forms while on the Board and not sure if they have been updated. They asked about my immediate family members and what they do for a living. Parents retired, brother worked at ACE hardware in Chicago area. Asked about my investment holding which I fully disclosed, IRAs managed by professionals and only four small stock holdings that did no business with the RCSC. My first year on the Board I did make arrangements with five insurance brokers I worked with in Chicago with the approval of the GM as we needed a new broker as the last one turned out to be a crook. I only worked in one line of Property and Casualty and that was Surety Bonds, which is very esoteric, ask John Nowalkowski as he was familiar with my company. Overall no conflicts.
Now we are looking at a climate controlled environment for pickleball at MV, let the building of a Taj Mahal begin and unending requests. You heard it here first folks, the Invasion of the PIF Snatchers.
Golf, I no longer play but I know is seriously underutilized. To me that means unused tee times. What does that mean to you.
I never knew that member questions had to be cleared or there were rules, aside from decorum or rants. The only one I was aware of was a question where a Board member had information not privy to the others creating an unjust situation. Understandable.
Time for the Hollanders to buy trinkets for the natives back home.
Stom he’, bendankt and tot zines.
Welcome back, Dave! It will be an interesting next 2 1/2 months. Lots of groundwork has been done by various committees. Several new candidates for the Board. The current Board will need to listen to the committee reports and Members and make decisions with careful consideration of their fiduciary responsibilities. Not a recipe for popularity!
If the PIF is moved into the general fund, then I hope Members can address that at the Membership meeting through a Bylaw change. If that is necessary, you might actually be glad that the quorum was changed to 500 Members plus proxies! Hope I am back by then....
Janet, if the members vote to move PIF to the general fund, they will find ways to blow it all in no time on pet projects and potentially crazy ideas. It is this kind of nonsense why I did not want to lower the quorum to 500 with unlimited proxies. Since the Articles say the members vote will prevail, any kind of run on PIF in general fund for crazy stuff would make the current Board legally liable since they voted on the quorum change. Rest assured if this happens I will be first in line on a class action suit for breach of fiduciary responsibility.
Christine, I totally agree with this and may join you.
As much as I want easier changes (and boy do we need change!), I was not in favor of lowering the quorum for reasons like this example.
If this change to the PIF happens, we (and others we know) may be looking to get out. This will ruin Sun City.
Don't mess with the PIF!
This is one of the things we should never touch!
I strongly encourage everyone to Google the candidates and look at their backgrounds.
May be some interesting history there....
We agree! The PIF is sacred! I have been told that a Director will call for a Membership meeting if anything is changed to use it for anything else.
Thanks, Anonymous, for the suggestion to Google the Board members. Very interesting!
I believe that any attempt by a small number of Members to eliminate the PIF would be considered "affairs of the corporation" which would require that that motion would go back to the board for study.
Oh crap, you are probably right, Tom. Then recalls for the Directors who support robbing the PIF should be undertaken. I will be the first to sign one and be out everyday ON RCSC property gathering signatures.
Besides google, you also want to check the Maricopa County recorder website and look at the documents on file.
Judgments, liens, lawsuits, companies, properties...
Does RCSC do a criminal background check on the candidates, including those that have been appointed?
I'll take Sunday afternoons.
I believe they do and that's one of the reasons they need to be able to hold a liquor license. Felons can't!.
Wasn't sure about that. Thanks.
Well, well, well. If Darbut and his gerbils are elected to the Board, every bad nightmare I have had will come to fruition. He is trying to pull the same crap that Manifesto (that’s what he called it) while a heavy hitting administrator for Maricopa Community Colleges. Just to fully inform everyone, next year he will be running the political campaign for Jean McGrath reelection as president of the community colleges Board. He will also be lobbying for the Koch run Americans For Prosperity. So when will he have time for RCSC business? Also what does he have planned for the RCSC besides this incredibly stupid PIF idea. In my opinion, basically he is not a person to be trusted.
I also think he is condescending and has the personality of a rotting watermelon rind.
If I have offended anyone, tough, that’s why it is called an option.
https://www.courthousenews.com/shenanigans-alleged-in-corporate-takeover/
https://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/
Dave,
You are always so kind and complimentary! How do you do it? Always looking and commenting on the positives.
Janet, it’s my sparkling personality which awed you on the by laws committee.
As for my opinion, I have dealt with financial gurus my entire career. If you are familiar with the term financial engineering m that is what he is trying to pull. If he paints a rosy picture on PIF going to the general fund, there is a very dark side to it. To me he is just another MBA hustler pure and simple.
Janet, on this he is absolutely spot on.
And there's more than just the one, although overall the board has good intentions.
If you and Linda were running for the board (I know rules say you can't), I wouldn't be so alarmed at this point.
This is more than a little disturbing.
I agree with both Dave and Anonymous that we should leave PIF alone.
A question for my financial guru, Dave, (seriously) what is "progressive finance", a term used by Director Darbut in his promotional statement for election? How does that differ from just regular finance? Thanks in advance!
Well, since Mr. Darbut is essentially a bullshit artist, I take this to mean possibly throwing PIF into the general kitty which would be the operational account,, maybe cash reserve but not likely but probably Capital Reserve. I never heard this term before but I believe it derives from financial engineering. This person should not be on the Board under any circumstances!
Moving on, Tom Marone, since the Queen of Fake Outrage, Debbie Lesko it appears you want to take up the mantle as evident by the exclamation points on the assessment increase in the released budget. Considering you spent your summer vacation attending the B&F meetings, you knew this was coming, but if you want to throw fake hissy fits be my guest. I am always watching and my arrogance knows no end. So, knowing what you know having spent the summer with us, you fer or agin the budget? Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks, Dave. Even Goggle can't explain progressive financing, only progressive taxes, progressive leasing, and the firm Progressive Insurance! I prefer a more straightforward financial arrangement which Kevin seems to be providing.
I am not opposed to an increase in our annual assessment since we have so many projects to complete. The Sun City Foundation can help those who are in need. Can a Member get help more than once from the Foundation? I hope so.
I think we are making progress on the golfing situation but hope we can continue to close the gap between the rates of full pass players and daily walk on players in the next few years. Many of the golfers will likely protest both a hike in the full pass play and the annual assessment. I don't know about you, but if I can't afford to do something, I just don't do it. I would like to take a cruise around the world, but I put that dream to rest quite awhile ago since I don't have the funds to do it! Instead I can read about those places or live vicariously by watching them on TV. That's life!
Dave, why do I waste my time responding to your negative convoluted accusations?
Of course I knew that the assessment was going to be raised to $575. I knew it for a long time but never made it public because it was never finalized but only recommended.
But if you read the motions for the upcoming board meeting, there is no mention of the increase. The recommendation/motion is simply to approve the budget.
My post on TOSC was simply to alert the Members that the increase is coming so they can comment on it at the meeting.
And why drag Debbie Lesko into the conversation? Another convoluted comment.
THE SUN CITY FOUNDATION BOARD POLICY No. 1
Approved December 15, 2022
GUIDELINES FOR FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE
The Board of Directors of The Sun City Foundation voted, with the approval of the RCSC Board, to provide financial assistance to RCSC members in need. As a result the following guidelines are established:
1. TO QUALIFY FOR FOUNDATION ASSISTANCE:
a) Applicant is at least 67 years of age and a property owner in Sun City for a minimum of five years and resides in the home. The applicant must also be a member in good standing for the three years prior to applying for assistance unless there are exigent circumstances.
b) The Sun City residence is their/his/her sole residence.
c) Applicant is an RCSC member whose annual assessment is no more than 60 days past assessment due date.
d) Applicant does not exceed income of 150% of the current year Federal Poverty Level.
https://f2f286.a2cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/2022_12_15-BP-1-Guidelines-for-Financial-Assistance-F.pdf
OK Tom, I will take a kinder and gentler approach. Your post on TOSC where you seem to want almost all committees report to B&F is basically a real burden for which, if implemented the committee members would have no outside life. One suggestion will not fly, reports to insurance committee regarding premiums and policy limits. I accept you know nothing about insurance nor have ever attended a committee meeting. We meet twice in the spring with our broker, Lockton.
The first meeting involves a discussion of the policies currently in force, Lockton reading the tea leaves as to the state of various insurance lines and coverages, loss experience and what we can expect for coverages, insurers and an educated guess as to renewal premium. We also clarify what underwriting information is required for renewal and possibly changing an insurer on a specific policy. Lockton then sends our policies out to various insurers for bids. These actions are normal and invite you and reiterate my invite to Janet to see the process in action.
The next and usually final meeting of the year is held generally in the middle of May wherein Lockton presents renewal information on all lines of the P&C coverages. While these quotes are not binding at the moment(I will get to that in a moment) the committee will usually recommend the renewal in total to the Board to approve. The reason the policies are not bound at that time is because insurers usually will not bind more than 30 days before the renewal date. This is common in the industry. Occasionally a coverage has been a bit difficult to place as happened this current year with flood coverage. Rather than bring everybody back for another meeting, Lockton and Kevin worked on the placing the coverage and the committee worked via email once a policy and premium were finalized regarding approval.There was a touch more to the situation but getting into the weeds really isn’t necessary.
Again insurance isn’t really “sexy” like B&F or SAC but the RCSC really cannot operate with no insurance coverages. We could self insure but that is essentially madness to save a few bucks. I would also again invite you and Janet to both meetings.
Sorry it is long winded but I wanted you to understand that this is not like getting auto or home insurance as it is complex. It took me two years, two Home Office seminars and annual continuing education to master what policies are required. In fact, there are common policies now that did not exist during my career, so in some aspects I am still learning and not ashamed to admit it.
I have the date on my calendar, Dave. See you there, Tom!
Janet, how correct was I about Jeff Darbut?
Linda McIntyre, Fairway did not cost $3M in 2008, it cost $14m. I am quite sure MV has asbestos in the building which costs a small fortune for removal, Also, I kind of did not like your attitude on PAC at MV secribing it far away or some such. I find that sort of a snotty attitude by people who live north of Grand. That’s where the Players want it, give it to them. Lake view is not a viable alternative.
Dave. I don't recall saying Fairway cost $3M. If it's in print somewhere it's an obvious typo and I'm surprised it wasn't pointed out sooner. I'm not so naive to think a teardown cost only $3M. I also said I "thought" it was said there there was no asbestos but "I wasn't sure" and yes, it would be extremy costly. Anything built prior to '73 likely has asbestos. Finally, Dave, there has been a lot of talk about a PAC at Lakeview, which is just a tad over that line that some sadly feels divides this beautiful community. Viewpoint Lake is a stunning setting for theater - yes, the players, a small group of members, want the theater at MTNV - my only comment was: is that in our long term best interest? I'm not lobbying for anything. I didn't suggest a stand alone at Bell which would be a central location.
I'm not Janet.
I'm very glad this candidate is gone as he couldn't be trusted. At all.
Keep googling!
Linda, just to keep the record straight, your post @12:14 stated the PAC would cost $13M. At 12:19 you state members should keep an eye on the cost. It would cost more than the $3M than Fairway and that was a rebuild. This is under the SAC meeting last Friday. I will accept your explanation as a typo. Just wanted to let you know what I saw.
I still think Lakeview is a bad idea.
Glad Darbut is gone but miss my attempts to expose him on running political campaign next year and his activism for Americans for Prosperity. Had he been elected he probably would have destroyed the finances of RCSC within three years..
Have fun storming the castle.
P.S. any word from the members and their thoughts on the new budget?
D
Thanks for pointing out the post - I definitely didn't proof my writing. It will come down to what the members want to spend to renovate, and will it meet the needs for the long term.
There is some talk about budget. Encouraging people to attend the Board meeting; will see how Thursday goes - there's a lot happening this week. And then the Town Halls could begin to tell the story.
Linda, if I had a quarter for every time I didn’t proof something I would be living in Fountain Hills.
You are correct that there is a lot coming up. I believe that the next six weeks or so are most important for the near future and long range future of Sun City. The members must understand that taking the bitter pill now sets the stage for a better tomorrow. Of course I believe they will be a few who think what we do now will instantly change everything and by the end of next year..
This also seems the beginning of the era of crazy ideas. A member has posted to save money on desert landscaping and provide more pickleball courts, some should be built on the South golf course. This is an idea not well thought through and insane on its face. I don’t say that because I live on the South course, it’s just plain crazy for any course.
See you/ type to you in the future.
D
I'm trying to remain optimistic that Members will see and understand the necessity of the decisions being made; however; it depends heavily on how the buget decisions are communicated.
Dear D,
I thought you told Tom M that you would "take a kinder and gentler approach". I mentioned the possibility of building a PB court on some of the excess land on the South Golf Course and you say it is "insane on its face". That isn't kinder and gentler! Besides I made it clear that it was just a thought. Bill P mentioned that the idea had been tossed around at one time so I don't think I am ready for the asylum just yet.
Kindly and Gently,
J
Janet, we think differently. When I saw your thought, how will this work, shorten holes and how many holes are involved in this idea? Where are they going to be installed considering this is a very residential area including homes, condos, not sure about geminis. How many courts, enclosed? What about parking, on street clogging our streets with who knows how many cars and for how long. Then there is the question of quiet enjoyment with the endless parade of players and the obnoxious sound of the game. Then there is insurance considerations along with the self entitled golfers questioning this idea along with cost. Then once they are built (assuming the problems are ironed out) how long will this sport be relevant. Remember when golf was the fastest growing sport, then it was tennis, then it was racquetball. Participatory sports for the masses are Darwinian, they come, they go and playing fields are left behind.
What guarantee do we have that the next generation to move here is interested in any of this? I see them as the tech generation and everything associated with it. Can we (Board and members) know what this generation will require in ten or twenty years? I’ll answer that question, we don’t know, we think we know but we don’t. When I moved here in 2005 golf was sort of popular, tennis dying, racquetball heading for life support and few heard of pickleball. I bicycled because Fairway was asbestos infested Quonset huts with clubs populated by grumpy old men who were not exactly welcoming newcomers. A couple of years later Fairway demolished along with Sundial roof doing a cannonball into the pool.
Sorry for the rant but I just don’t want to see us blow tons of money on things that will become obsolete. I understand the problems with golf and we are a bit hogtied on that, but I have not seen crazed golfers in carts trying to run over walkers around the perimeters of hole at 7AM. At least they have not tried it on me.
As much as I appreciate you both for all your service to Sun City, I do agree that this is a bad idea as well.
Let's get the finances and priorities straightened out first and put $ towards needs.
Then if anything is left over we can focus on the wants.
It will take years to get some things turned around.
Just one person's opinion! 😊
You certainly have to wonder, with a 20 million dollar backlog of deferred maintenance, just how many years will it take to get us back on track?
A very good plan has been laid out by the acting GM. And now we have a new GM with excellent qualifications and a good personality. It is now up to the board to make responsible ADULT decisions based on the facts and the truth in front of them and not on their own personal agenda.
Unfortunately, after reading a letter in the Independent yesterday I am very disappointed and not very confident in them anymore.
Anon, Kevin and the B&F committee spent their summer working on this plan not only for next year but projected next four years. The committee will be spending the balance of the year (hopefully) working on a rolling five year plan for the Capital Reserve Fund (asset preservation fund). There will be members who will not like what they see or what we have to do, but solid financial footing doesn’t just happen and going cheap or gum and baling wire is just kicking the can down the road a long distance, really,really long
distance.
I admit I am bias because I am on the B&F committee, but it’s made up of members with strong financial backgrounds. I hope the members take that into account.
I agree with Dave regarding the work of Budget & Finance. With Kevin McCurdy's diligence and hours of work by his team, the Committee spent hours analyzing finances, and RCSC current and future needs. The first big surprise was the $20M in deferred maintenance - more than double the first estimate. Unfortunately our meetings haven't been recorded, but for the first time in more than a decade this budget hasn't just had a cursory review and a hasty approval. Like Dave said, we have a plan for the future that also requires the proposed PIF increase and will require other future increases moving forward. Neglecting our amenities, both smaller capital investments as well as the large PIF investments, have caused unnecessary harm. Having eight golf courses and eight recreation centers is something to boast about - it's a selling point. You can move here and get "all of this." But, expecting all of this for "cheap" is unrealistic. And for those that say, "but I don't use any of the amenities," my response - if you check around, I doubt it's likely you could live anywhere cheaper. We have to stop calling the assessment a "rec fee." It's a property assessment. As our realtor told us - "with the mandatory assessment payment, you will each receive access to all of the amenities. You can choose to use them or not, but the assessment is required." Communication with our members is important at every level. The budget is complicated, revenue sources are limited. The RCSC budget is the size of a small municipality.
Thanks, Linda and Dave, for your work on the Finance and Budget committee. I am confident that your budget will move us in the right direction. I hope the Board approves it but they should have two readings on something this important.
The long range plan is also needed and I look forward to seeing it. We just need to be sure to review and revise it on a regular basis. No good sitting on the shelf with only cursory attention paid to it. It should drive what RCSC does.
Mr. D, of course those questions would need to be asked if pickleball facilities would be possible at South Course or any place. I have played South, in fact I have walked it, and there is a lot of distance between holes and the fairways and roughs are wide. It was just a thought. You don't need to put me down for trying to think outside the box. We all know many golf courses that include tennis courts. Not much different. I am not sure that all the pickleball courts need to be available for tournament use. Some could be for people that just want to play but not compete.
My deepest gratitude to you both and all involved this summer for the many hours and extensive work done. You have brought us down to reality here and I hope the board and members will appreciate you and agree with all your recommendations.
Thank you for your time and expertise.
SURPRISING & DISAPPOINTING!!
**ONLY 67** RCSC member/residents attended the Board of Directors meeting Thursday, October 26, 2023, 9am!!
**ONLY 252 have viewed it online!!
Video here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdLy0Uy9sKWCJNLz37tn5ug
RCSC written Summary here: https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/BOD-Mtg-Summary-10-26-23.pdf
There seems to be some confusion regarding the motion on the increase of the transfer fee. The transfer fee is levied, paid by the purchaser at closing and currently is $300. This fee has been in effect since about 1970. I purchased my residence in 1998 and the fee was $300 and has not not be raised since who knows when.
The Budget and Finance committee decided that raising this fee was more palpable to purchasers than an increase in the PIF to $5000. Additionally increasing PIF would not solve the problem of Capital Improvements, that is items that do not qualify with PIF. This increase would serve a twofold purpose, it would assist in decreasing the backlog in deferred maintenance over the next few years and would allow the RCSC to build up the Capital Reserve Fund (Asset Preservation Fund) for future maintenance. This increase is crucial to the RCSC building a solid financial footing for the future.
Finally, there are not two separate transfer fees, this is just an increase to the current fee.
Thank you for clarifying this. Much appreciated.
It sounds like the F&B has a well thought out proposal for raising the transfer fee. I hope the Board approves the second reading of it.
Janet, thanks for your support. Believe it or not this was my idea I pitched to the committee a few months ago. The initial reception was a bit frosty as we were exploring new revenue sources and trying to mitigate increases in assessments. There were a few members of the committee that didn’t remember what the fee covered, so I explained the fee and what it covered. I did say that fee increase may sound a bit drastic but it was $300 when I purchased in 1998, consequently the fee has not be increased in at least 25 years. I also advised I had researched transfer fees on condos and houses with required HOAs and found that transfer fees ranged from about $300 for small condo developments that were older up to several thousand dollars for high end housing.
This information caused some of the more conservative members to say they wanted to think about it and discuss further at the next meeting. After further discussion the committee decides this was the way to go as a step to assist in the backlog and future funding of Capital reserve. Using historical housing sales or transfers, the fee could generate in excess of $1.5M annually. Not necessarily thinking outside the box but looking at what was in the box.
As for your statement regarding tennis courts and approximate location to golf courses. Generally this combo is seen at country clubs and upscale developments, but the courts are generally located some distance from the golf course and not on top of them. They’re still issue of parking and where. Not saying your is wrong but rather space conditions with related questions.
D
Janet, I hate to take issue with your $25-30 assessment increase but this is the type of thinking that got us into this mess. Part of the assessment will be going to the Capital Reserve Fund which is currently underfunded by about 80%+ of where it should be. I have posted that going cheap is running in place and maintenance will be piling up over the next few years, the excess cash position, formerly known as cash carry forward will disappear in the next few years. As Mom used to say “We aren’t made of money and it doesn’t grow on trees.” Same here and very smart woman.
The cost of maintenance over the next 5-7 years is what B&F will be spending their Holiday vacations working on hoping to present to the Board by year end, provided Holiday libations don’t interfere.
I think we should do exactly what B&F recommends. Leave the assessment increase at $50. No one loves this but it's a need and not a want at this point.
Readers of my posts, at the B&F committee meeting on Friday the prosed $1000 transfer was discussed. I learned at this meeting that the transfer was not the increase I proposed a few months ago. Rather it is a separate fee totaling $1000 in addition to the normal $300 trans fee which has been collected since time immemorial. Consequently, representations I made earlier concerning this fee were factually incorrect. For this I profusely apologize. I have never knowingly tried to mislead members on important issue and always tried to post factual information. As I have previously stated information that is just plain not true. Again I apologize to the members and to SCA for allowing to post on this site.
It is my goal to continue to post here and to regain your trust.
Thank you for reading this and hope you willgriously accept my contrition.
David A Wieland
Accepted.
Everybody makes mistakes. Not everyone is willing to correct. No worries. Thank you.
The most important priority for the RCSC in the near future is getting the community members involved.
Second to that is Technology. Seems to have been forgotten again. No updates.
Thanks, Dave. I thought the motion proposing the $1,000 increase was also somewhat confusing. I understood from previous meeting discussions that the new fee would be added to PIF and then segregated to capital. And, I don't think I'm the only one that had that perception. Meeting summaries would have been helpful to minimize confusion, rumors and any misinformation. Thanks again.
Bill, et.al., you may have been pleased with the Annual Meeting but I thought it was a shit show from the beginning. The only people on the stage was the President, Secretary and Marcia and Marcia was the only one doing any real work. The other Directors in the audience. WTF was that all about? They should have been on the stage and not hiding out in the weeds. Inexcusable!
The agenda was bizarre. After opening the meeting and verify the quorum it went to member motions. It went smoothly until Lori Ellington had a motion which had the crowd grumbling with her speech in support securing quotes from Barlett’s. How did Albert Einstein fit into this? Then the vote on the motion which started with a voice vote and then descended into a ballot vote which would have been unnecessary if there was a provision for a standing vote. Same result as the ballot only quicker. Not sure if standing vote is currently in by laws or policy but it was in the proposed by laws that was defeated last year. You reap what you sow.
After that kabuki theater and the motions were defeated or withdrawn, there was adjournment of the meeting. What, no member comments!!! I thought this was a membership meeting and no member comments? Whose idiotic idea was this. True, there were some speakers afterwards but no idea what they had to say. If it was constructive we don’t know as Marcia was not obligated to take notes as the official meeting was over. It is my wish that this stupid format is not repeated in March.
Finally, proxies. I have made it quite clear that I do not like proxies because they are not utilized properly. I had a discussion with a SCA member about view on the subject. The proxies issued and there are no specific proxies. I was told that this was wrong, the corporate office has both. I asked corporate about this and not to put too fine of a point on this, I was lied to but the SCA member. There are no specific proxies! This kind of punches a hole in the transparency thing when your own members don’t know what they are talking about.
One final note on member comments, why was Norm Dixon removed from B&F committee and SAC, what part did Kat play in this and she does not have to arbitrarily and capriciously remove members from a committee. Why did John Fast resign from B&F committee, what part did Kat did play in this and did she arbitrarily and capriciously remove him? This is where the talk about transparency comes into play. The Board has no personnel argument to hide behind and they cannot sit there in silence waiting for it to go away. This my friends is the line in the sand on transparency. We have it or we do not.
Fast resigned?! Wow. He could be trusted. What's going on here is very bad for the future of Sun City folks.
There is no transparency.
But there is a HUGE agenda. Look behind the curtains...
It ain't pickleball.
It ain't the PAC.
Check check check the backgrounds.
You have been warned.
Oh and Mr. Vieland you are right on all counts.
Dance U Serb Herr/Frau/Frauelein Anonymous. I plan to bring up the Norm and John thing at Monday’s Exchange.
Anonymous,
Please be transparent yourself and explain the HUGE agenda and checking backgrounds. I don't have any idea what you are talking about.
Thanks
Dave, the reason the entire board wasn't sitting on the stage was because this was a meeting of the membership. Those directors are first and foremost Members.
Next, there is nothing in the bylaws that prevented a standing vote, however, I doubt that that would resolved anything since that ballot vote on Lori's motion failed by only 17 votes.
A couple of things that did go wrong were, as you mentioned, Lori Ellingson's motion. She should not have been allowed to give her reasons for the motion until the motion received a "second". Lori went into her speech even before reading the complete motion!
And it would have been nice if the meeting didn't just stop while the ballots were being counted.
Russ Toman did the same thing! Give reason prior to "second".
Also, Russ should not have been allowed to withdraw his motion without a vote of the entire assembly because debate had already been in progress and therefore the motion no longer belonged solely to him but too the entire assembly.
I'm not so sure you were lied to regarding proxies. True, there are "general" and "specific" proxy forms but if only "general" proxies were issued then "yes" there were no "specific" proxies?!?!?
Lastly, I too would like to know the rest of the story as why some members left their committees! Norm had that long article in the Independent criticizing everybody else for their departure but failed to tell us why he left the SAC committee or stopped moderating the Town Hall's!
Tom,
Since you were at the exchange you probably hear me pontificate about the meeting. What Kat said and what the agenda said were two different things and I found her explanation counterintuitive. The adjournment was for the business portion only which was not stated on the agenda. She stated member comments were afterwards. RIGHT! They spoke after Kat adjourned the member meeting when people were leaving. She also stated the purpose of the meeting was for member motions, fine, what if we have a quorum and no motions, is the meeting then adjourned? That is no different than the meetings with no quorum. Consequently to defy this logic the agenda would have to say that there are no motions and business portion is closed and move on to member comments. Now to take this one step further, can or cannot members make motions from the floor? It happened at the last meeting with a quorum and that is when I wasted nine months of my life working on revised by laws that were voted down and now the Board is going back and plagiarizing our work under the guise they are doing something. I also have 15 pounds of paper from that committee to back up that statement.
Moving on, I am no going to comment on the Norm thing as I said something about Kat that I later found out was not true. I have one source on Norm but I would like to secure at least two more sources that were close to the situation. There is a B&F meeting tomorrow for some reason and we will see if Norm shows up, if not I have to ask Karen what’s going on.
Speaking of the B&F committee, the five year plan we are going to work on is going to be difficult in that people are asking for PIF projects to be included. The big problem there is no one is making a frigging decision! I saw on a sheet available at the meeting last week that there might be an ad hoc committee to SAC! Are you shitting me, a committee to a committee that maybe or maybe not is a sub committee to LRP committee! This reminds me of the corporate BS I had to put up with for 30+ years. Since you are tuned in to SAC, are they going to make a decision before we both die of old age and what does this bode for the LV project?
Sorry for the rant but I imagine you are as frustrated as myself. I have a stack of books I am reading and if there is no movement, I am just going to sit back and read. Currently have five going, a Ken Follett book that is the last of the Pillars of the Earth series, Galileo by Walter Issacson, still working on Homegrown, book that contains two biographies of Charlemagne by one who was a top advisor to him and the by a scholar who lived about 50 years after his death, Prequel which is about the rise of fascism and Nazi infiltration in the US during the 1930s ( I remember my mother talking about events mentioned in the book such as Father Coughlin), quite interesting. Sorry I don’t loan out my books as I never get them back, OK I have currently three people one of which is one of my oldest friends and Europe traveling buddy.
Hope to see you tomorrow.
"The adjournment was for the business portion only which was not stated on the agenda."
But it was stated on the agenda? After the last motion was made by Russ the agenda stated "adjournment." There was no agenda item for "comments", however, the chair did allow comments after the meeting was adjourned.
Look, "comments" are not part of the standard order of business and if comments were to be allowed during the meeting they should have been listed as an agenda item and the agenda should have been voted on for approval.
Standard order of business only requires:
1. Reading and Approval of Minutes
2. Reports of Officers, Boards, and Standing Committees
3. Reports of Special (Select or Ad Hoc) Committees
4. Special Orders
5. Unfinished Business and General Orders
6. New Business
If you have a quorum and no motions then you proceed down the standard orders of business until you hit No.6. With no new business the chair will state "If there is no further business, the meeting is adjourned."
And if you remember, after Russ withdrew his motion and there was no additional business listed, someone in the assembly called and made the motion to adjourn.
Honestly, I was a little surprised that the chair even allowed comments considering that the next Member/Board Exchange was only 5 days away. It would have been an incentive for more people to attend the Exchange?
Tom, the new CIR fee and signed contracts kerfuffle, this shows how ill informed and I am being polite local realtors are. Doesn’t this person read a newspaper? The fee has been in the Independent since September or October and its purpose was made clear. It was also obvious that it was going to pass, was discussed at exchanges and while a motion. Mr. Nixon’s act in substance that this was sprung on us, we didn’t know, etc. oh woe are us doesn’t play with me. Realtors here say how they are experts on Sun City but are unaware of a bylaw that has been news for at least three months. BS. I would also point out that this is the first time I have seen him at a meeting and he whines. Maybe the purchasers should sue him for incompetence under his liability policy and leave us alone.
I know I probably will not have any new friends and probably outraged old ones, but this is my opinion. Have fun storming the castle.
I wasn't at the Exchange this month because I was out of town. However, I have seen both Tim and Amy Nixon at many RCSC meetings.
Dave...very true that the CIF has been in the works for a while, however, until it's a done deal it's just talk! How many years have they been talking about building a new theater or how long have they been discussing Mountain View.
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