Member / Board Exchange Recap - Part Three
Where should our priorities lie and what should our priorities be?
We heard at the meeting and have seen on the financials that the RCSC has been accumulating more than a million dollars a year above and beyond budgets. It's resulted in the largest surpluses in Sun City's history. Having money in the bank isn't a bad thing unless you refuse to spend it on the things members have been clamoring for years.
Budgeting season is fast approaching and we all need to offer up some member checks and balances on the process.
Priorities: Realities, promises, mistakes, and dollars spent
- Dog owners are desperate for an indoor facility
- Softball players have been lobbying for a new clubhouse for years that has yet to have ground broken
- Soundproofing of displaced Pickleball facilities
- Fitness trial initiative from the Long Range Planning Committee
- $160K error when building the vintage car club for an undersized garage door
- To cover that mistake, they took out air conditioning and felt a swamp cooler was good enough for them, which leaves the building almost impossible to use for part of the year
Members were anxious to see the work the Ad Hoc Bylaw committee has been completing and curious to know how the recommended changes will get member review and approval and how solutions for systems of Checks and Balances and transparency can be demonstrated to earn members' trust. No answers here - just a wait and see. Possibly a BOD Planning Session on September 29th after the board meeting.
Many issues didn't come up yesterday - there just wasn't time. Think: water initiatives, technology, security, 40-million-dollar rebuild at Mountain View rather than having built a 5 or 10-million-dollar stand-alone theater years ago and other projects that many of us are seeking updates to.
Our Amenities - Are We Willing to Share?
You'll notice in the video a big portion of the meeting was about Golf. Golf is arguably one of the most important amenities in Sun City but certainly not the only one. The big question that is begged, is are we willing to share or sell out our amenities to non-residents? Certainly, take a look at the blog on Golf and go to Talk of Sun City and read this really long discussion on Golf - it's very helpful to get you up to speed if you are not one of the 4000 golfers in Sun City.
So, dare I ask what's next?
How about if we start selling the rights to the
outsiders who want to join the vintage car club. Let them buy into using that
wonderful facility (if they get it air-conditioned) for a couple hundred
dollars a year. Then we can sell them a premium membership at $500 or $1000
where they will be guaranteed a lift any time they want, because well, you
know, we need the money.
The list is endless; swimming pool access, gym memberships, pickleball memberships, using our metal shops wood shops, craft clubs, and lawn bowling.
Each of them has a potential revenue stream. Think about it, we would never
again suffer an increase in rec fees.
Of course, the downside would be, we would
only be able to use them when the non-residents didn't want to.
The answer here should be, NO! But, who is really in charge to make that decision?
Community vs Business
What is especially terrifying to me was the closing statement by the board president, “ One last comment, this is to management and staff, this is to you. You need to run this like a business because if you don’t it’s going to cost THESE PEOPLE more money.” - Dale Lehrer. It was her closing shot.
It went hand in glove with the general manager's lament about making money...even though we (the RCSC) have never had more cash on hand; never ever and we do not exist to make and grow money but to meet member's needs and wishes. To quote Bill Pearson, 'we are a community, not a business'.
Cheri Marchio - Advisory Panel Sun City Advocates
17 comments:
They should run the center like a business but the rules should be in favor of the community. I have to wonder what is behind the scenes and is binding the board member's hands? What could possibly be preventing them from moving forward with the things the community is asking for? Fear of failure? Fear of legal ramifications? Are there other strings being pulled by unseen forces? Have to wonder
As a owner of a golf course lot, that's on the 150 yard mark of the 18th hole, dog leg. I can say that in my location we have a lot more golf balls in our yard and a lot more damage to our home in the spring break time. From Mid February to Mid April we had on average 3-5 golf balls in our yard, with one every other day hitting somewhere on our house. The rest of the year we have 2-3 a week, and almost none that hit the house. In confronting the offenders who we saw do damage. We found that they were all guests. Those were the ones we spoke to about it. So you can imagine how I feel about guests paying to play in our community. Ownership and respect seem to cohabitate best together.
I agree with rboysinmt. We too own a golf course lot. I believe guests are the biggest offenders in turf abuse and tresspassing. We watch under 55 yr old in rented carts making tight repeated turns on the fairwayway for no reason. Hardly ever does anyone replace divots. And younger players enter yards for ball retrieval all the time. Also we see young people hopping rides on carts designed for only two players.
Each resident purchased their home with the promise that RCSC Cardholders would have 1st priority. Under the new management, this is not the direction of the future. The new general manager has only corporate work experience. He has no experience in community management leadership.
Just another thought, the majority of senior managers do not live in Sun City so how can they understand the way of life residents bought into? I believe, and I could be wrong, that only 1 senior manager lives in SC.
Owner-residents senior managers in Sun City
Mike Wiprud - Director of Building & Infrastructure
Kevin McCurdy - Director of Finance
Thank you for the clarification Anonymous. I forgot about Mike Wiprud.
RBOYINMT and Cheri,
I also have a golf corse lot on the South course (15th hole) and have had many golf balls hit into my yard and a few bounced of my residence and windows. While you may find your situation as unfortunate, you are subject to the legal theory of assumption of risk. This means that since you purchased your lot you possess a reasonable assumption that golf will at some point have golf balls hit into your yards. I have collected over 600 since purchasing in 1998. As for the trespass issue, you could always approach the golfers with a golf club in hand and threaten bodily violence under the stand your ground and the castle theory but would not recommend it. In the alternative, you could ask them to drop the ball, leave since the ball as it is your property and you own it under English Common Law (which the U S incorporated in our jurisprudence back in the day) or get the license number of the cart or cart number if rented as report this info to the pro shop.
Hope this helps.
Christine/Dave - Your comment does not help at all. You missed our points. We were commenting on the fact that the 'offenders' appear to be non-members and non-residents.
Didn’t miss your points at all.
First you do not replace divots here as it is not that type of grass. Thought the same way as you but went golfing with my neighbor and told me that you sprinkle the seed/sand mixture in the divot. Granted the greens are different regarding ball marks. As for tight turns on fairways, before my body told me no more golf I and my neighbor did the same thing as we were trying to identify which ball was mine. Think of brand name and number face down in grass. As for hopping rides, it is used sometimes to speed up game, think your ball on one same of fairway and your partner on the other while the others in the foursome/fivesome are on same side.
Now the question is are you extrapolating your experience where you live to the entire course or do you follow them for the entire round?
As for the tee time and the outside cost factor, I attended the last exchange and only one golf spoke to any of theses issues, which I found somewhat revealing. If these are such burning issues, why the lame response?
Not trying to start an argument or anything, just trying to gauge the sentiment of the golfing community. Why are representatives of the various greens commmitees not voicing the group’s opinion on this at the exchanges? Too busy golfing?
Atilla the Hun Deus illud vult.
Rather than arguing about the nits and gnats regarding golf Dave, and in an effort to keep this as simple as humanly possible can you answer these four simple questions? They are cut and pasted from TOSC for someone concerned about the minutia; this removes all doubt about what were are talking about regarding golf:
Question #1) Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should pay less for golf than golfers living in Sun City?
Yes or No?
Question #2). Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should ever get tee times ahead of golfers living in Sun City?
Yes or No?
Question #3). Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should ever get golf cars ahead of golfers living in Sun City?
Yes or No?
Question #4). Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should ever rent golf cars for less money than golfers living in Sun City?
Yes or No?
Easy as pie and should help me/us understand where you are coming from or going to. Thank, Bill.
Bill, you have asked the same questions of me previously and you know my answers, consequently posing them here is what is called a non sequitur (sp?).
The question at hand is Cheri’s contention that her problems at her residence “appear” to be caused by guests without providing any empirical proof whatsoever. My experience with trespassers has been with self entitled residents who get pissy when I ask them to vacate my property as retrieving their errant shots is a license to go anywhere. They have attacked my Mexican Bird of Paradise bushes (10’ in diameter and close to 6’ high) with their in order to retrieve a $2 golf ball caus8ng damage to the plants. One is permanently stunted because of these golfers.
I think I have adequately addressed concerns and misinformation posed here. I also understand your crusade on golf rates and hope you understand my postings.
BTW, golf has posted a positive $1.3 million net of depreciation through 8 months.
No Dave i don't understand the gibberish you spew on here. I'll just rack it up to your "medical problems" though you were notorious for doing the same thing before. The only "misinformation" is the shit you keep shoveling. But thanks for showing up and addressing the concerns.
Hopefully your plants are doing better in recovery than you are. Sorry, just not feeling very charitable. BTW, 300 reads on the golf thread on TOSC in the past 24 hours. People are paying attention and it will be the defining difference this coming election.
These amenities belong to the RCSC members, not somebody living outside the walls and enjoying them for less money than many of us would pay. See, not all that freaking hard to say; i just wanted to see if you were capable of saying it. You weren't...which speaks volumes.
I know, i sounded a bit harsh in my last response to you Dave, but frankly i'm simply tired of being Mr. Nice Guy. As another poster has pointed out, it almost appears as if you relish the idea of being a contrarian?
Nothing wrong with that by the way, as long as your arguments make sense. So just for shits and giggles let's delve into your above comment. Clearly we disagree over whether the RCSC is making money on golf or not? Or, better yet, whether the RCSC is fabricating the numbers they are posting on the 990 forms?
But alas, my efforts to get you to answer those 4 simple questions above wasn't trickery; i've read your weak kneed responses of it being wrong. They've always been buried in amongst the gibberish. I just wanted to see if you could say out loud giving our amenity's was wrong? Clearly you couldn't because it was some sort of "non-starter."
Anyway, back to your posting regarding golf this year being "a positive 1.3 million net of depreciation through 8 months," is curious. Here's why: The general manager has argued we need the roughly 300k those non-resident full play passes they are selling. If golf is doing as good as you are claiming, why would the gm actively be advocating we give away our amenities to outsiders?
In fact, if golf is that strong, the last thing we should be doing is letting non-residents have access to our courses ahead of the members. I would and could easily argue doing so is a breach of the boards fiduciary responsibilities. On the other hand, if they are hemorrhaging money, there's at least an argument to be made they need to try and recover some of those losses.
Eagerly awaiting your response; is it fish or foul (i know it should be fowl, but the other seems more appropriate).
Bill, I understand you are a passionate individual and want the best for Sun City, as do I. We are trying to achieve the same things on different areas. That said, as to your four questions, I answered number two on August 1 on this blog under the thread A Voice in the wilderness, look it up. The other three I would agree with you, satisfied? I would be careful about the “medical issue” and subsequent “recovery” statements as it could be construed as borderline libel. As.far as I know you hold no medical doctor degree of any sort.
As for misinformation, point out anything I posted that is not true. I live on the South course, you know that, I have had golf balls hit in my yard and if you don’t believe me, stop by and look at my collection, I have had people trespass in my yard and have severely damaged one of my bushes, stop by and take a look. Cheri in fact posted that “offenders appear/ believe to be guests.” Prove it. I have seen young people on the South course late in the day both in season and off. It was in the Independent that it was a high school golf team from Peoria practicing and they also were walking the course so no golf cart issue there.I also found them very polite following the rules golf when I was watching while sitting on my patio.
As for saying the profitability of golf through eight months is taken from the 8/31/2022 interim financial I was sent. Do you have a copy to refute my numbers? You still seem not to understand depreciation even though I provided you a definition at your request. You never advised me you did not understand my definition.
I am not a contrarian, I just call out people who make statements that indicate they have no idea what they are talking about, make incorrect assumptions or in even the current case, agree with them and provide my relevant experience or is this gibberish to you?
So, here’s the deal, I will let you do your rage against the machine thing trying for a sense of community, transparency and trying to operate a $120million+ corporation based on ideas from 1975 when Sun City was maybe a quarter to a third the size it is now hoping to relive the days of yesteryear. I understand you are an originality but there are so many things today that didn’t exist then, adaptability. In return I will continue my crusade on accurate financial information, transparency on construction and anything else I can think of.
One final thought, in spite of this golf thing, are the courses not beautifully maintained and excellent reports from the Golf Association that visits annually. Are the rec centers not the envy of other Valley Sun City developments for the price and well maintained? Are not people wanting to move here rather than people leaving, death excepted? Generally what is not to like? Just thought I would ask.
See you next week comrade.
The law is different in assumption of risk. Assumption is based on what is "normal", not what is extreme.
Dave. No one has written or spoken more on the beauty of the Sun City way of life. So, let's dispatch that whole notion that i hate Sun City. The tenets of the community that were built into it are hardly throw-away's because they are somehow outdated.
Is volunteerism something we should ditch? How about ownership? Responsibility? Accountability? Is a sense of community outdated? It's been my mantra since the day i moved here. It's never wavered. All i have ever asked is to let the membership decide. That's it. They simply refused to, Why?
Glad you finally agreed outsiders shouldn't be taking over our courses. It might be the most basic of tenets in the whole boatload of items Sun City was built around. Delighted to hear you don't think that too should be tossed aside. After all, it's how we got our unique tax status isn't it?
Did you read the PGA golf report from this year? I did and have for years. Yes our courses are well maintained and yes they identified issues with them, They always do. So what? You still avoided my last question to you. If golf is now profitable, why are we going begging by giving non-members half priced golf?
That one question alone tells me all the "financial data" you are trying to get me to regurgitate is more of the same old spin. They've buried numbers for years, they still are. However, if you are 100% correct, do you see it as a breach of the board members fiduciary responsibility to allow management to sell these half price passes to non-members?
Simple question, not so easy answer. BTW, wishing/hoping your plants are recovering is hardly slander or libel or whatever you were touting. And more to the point, you've raised your health issues time and time again and the impact it had on you. You're the one who claimed repeatedly how it affected your cognitive abilities. Perhaps you forgot that.
Bill, didn’t read the report this year as Di and myself were dealing with issues on different fronts, which is still continuing. This never had an effect on my commitment to the by-laws committee.
My goal with the financials is not to have your regurgitate anything. Rather I am trying to educate you to wade through the numbers and understand. After all isn’t that the purpose of SCA? Nothing is buried as you say if you know where to look. That is all I am trying to do, evidently against some headwinds. One thing I have learned about financial statements is things can turn of a dime. What is the story behind the numbers? First thing to consider is the effect of the pandemic on golf revenue and will it last? I have no idea but prior to the pandemic golf was essentially flat, will it revert back to this? Will the new blood moving here enhance the growth of the past couple years? I don’t know and it will take probably take the statements over the next few to provide the answers.
I will let continue what you do as I will being doing the same.
Go forth and spread truth and beauty.
RBOY, I find your interpretation of assumption of risk a bit puzzling. First I have no idea which course you and Cheri reside, although I do not understand what you mean by extreme. I live on the South course which is pretty wide open and it takes a pretty lousy shot to land in my yard, on my patio, between my house and the neighbors. Yes it has happened.
When I was first on the Insurance committee, I was tasked to research assumption of risk concerning living on a course from tort standpoint. I knew when I purchased my residence that I had a reasonable assumption that golf balls would be hit into my yard. I discussed this with several attorneys and they all agreed that my view of assumption was correct. So, if I am miss8ng something , please enlighten me.
D
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