Our expert in all things Sun City Advocates is on vacation, so here is my feeble attempt to post a Blog.
As posted in Sun City Advocates FB group on May 15th
One man's opinion
So let's talk about the recent Member Exchange... The good, the bad, and the ugly...
The Good:
-Progress continues on signing a 5 year library lease. There was some push-back by the Membership that this is not happening fast enough.
- The Board has engaged legal assistance to assist in considering the hospital property purchase and are in the process of conducting due diligence on the property.
- A five year plan is nearing completion and we will get a first glimpse of it at the May RCSC Board meeting hopefully.
- A 10-15 year PIF plan will follow.
- It was mentioned the Board is looking towards professional assistance to develop a RCSC Master Plan in 2025.
You cannot understate how Good the Good really is. Based on my understanding of historical Board practices this is a monumental shift and should be applauded!!!
The Bad:
- Communication continues to be a very big challenge for the RCSC. Staff do not even attend the Outreach and Communications Committee meetings, and Management stated it might be until the end of the year before they will do so.
- There appears to be growing frustration that the RCSC is not doing anything about the homeless situation in Sun City. The Board indicated that the RCSC has no ability to address the homeless and concerns should be raised with Maricopa County or SCHOA.
This month it does not appear that there is much Bad. That said, the communications issue is a serious problem, and quite frankly is exacerbating the challenges the Board faces in performing it's duties.
The Ugly:
- Member safety was given as a primary reason for considering the closure of the Fairway library. To date, the Board and Management have not produced a single demonstration of the actual problems faced, rather they have relied upon anecdotal statements. Furthermore, when a factual accounting has been requested, the Board cites "confidentiality" as the reason one cannot be given.
It is understandable that actual incident reports cannot be made public. However, there is simply no reason that the safety violations cannot be summarized by Date/Time/Location/Safety Reason and provided to the Membership. This is a perfect example of where communication is lacking and is causing challenges the Board just does not need. That is, of course, unless safety was merely given as an excuse to cover what was a lapse in Management judgement. I prefer to believe it is the former, but it is becoming more and more difficult to argue that it is not the latter.
(Earl Brigham)
Please feel free to comment below.
*Here is a link to the last RCSC member Exchange.
80 comments:
Everybody who is interested in sun city RCSC MEETINGS should watch the meeting on line and if you don't care to watch the whole thing just listen to the last speaker Bill Pearson .He summed it up in a appropriate manner and a very well stated summation I don't think anybody could describe the situation any better. Excellent
This board has been doing everything but doing backflips to open communications bring issues to the members thru exchange meetings the web site,newspaper email, u tube etc.Now the residents must do their part and try to figure out how to use the avenues that are presented. Each meeting is on the internet and I believe the majority of members have access either on their phone or home computer or at neighbors.So we must try a little harder to retrieve the information. They are working to make it easier on getting the information. This board is more open to suggestions than the past board's so let's try and be helpful rather than look for criticism continually. Thank you volunteers!!!
This post is a wonderful example of how to communicate effectively. BRAVO.
3 points (Good, Bad Ugly), within each 3-5 points made with short sentences.
If I want to know more I am told where to go.
Awesome respect of my time and effective education.
Keep it up. Give classes on summary communication to anyone willing to listen
Thank you
Seems to me that no one wants to tackle the issue of homelessness in Sun City. SCHOA says not my problem, RCSC says not my problem. Residents say we have a problem. So it seems we need to create another entity within Sun City. One that is willing to gather information and be the liaison with State officials in regard to all matters, that are outside the parameters of SCHOA and RCSC, such as homelessness.
Thanks Earl, as Marco noted above, well summarized. He's always been an "advocate' for small bites, or should i say "bytes?" No one knows better than him the value of less is more when it comes to the internet. Those of us who like to write, almost always tend to overdo it. The beauty of breaks and headers allows us to pick and chose.
I loved this cut from The Good: "You cannot understate how Good the Good really is. Based on my understanding of historical Board practices this is a monumental shift and should be applauded!!!" So on point as the evolution from then to now is staggering. Sadly, most have no idea how bad it was.
Lots of good responses in the comments as well. The one most troubling was suggesting we create another entity to deal with homelessness. A couple of quick thoughts, neither of which will be appreciated:
1). SCHOA was quick to state "not my problem," but from a historical point of view, that was the exact reason the Home Owners Association was created in 1961. They were the conduit between the community and the local government bodies. It wasn't until sometime later they added administrating the CC&R's. They have a strong working relationship with those same governing bodies so pretending they couldn't help coordinate efforts to address the problems is questionable. Hell, open their monthly newsletter and you can see how closely tied they are to some local politicians (its been that way for as far back as i can remember).
2). This one will get butt ugly, so hang on. Sun City fought off incorporation from 1061-1995. The powers that be from most of the Sun City organizations wanted us to become a city. The problem was, most of the folks living here wanted no part of it. They knew the argument to incorporate would change the relationship, shape and context of Sun City as we knew it.
Those in favor argued "revenue sharing" would more than cover the cost as the excess tax dollars would be funneled back to provide city services. It was true, but ultimately those same burgeoning city services would explode causing our tax base to rise like everywhere else. Self-governance was a bitter pill swallowed and the battle over incorporation finally died.
Now with the "societal problems" catching up with us, the idea we should evolve and become something else, are showing up. The question is: Would becoming a city even work? The answer is abundantly obvious by looking around and seeing how that's worked in cities around or near us.
So thanks again Earl, lots to digest. The reality is the quest for a better Sun City isn't caught up in one answer, one strategy or one predetermined outcome. The answers, as we have learned from our history, are forged from hard work, open minds and finding solutions that best match the memberships, the boards and managements working hand in hand.
What I find ugly regarding incident reports is the fact that they won't even tell us how many there are!
I can't help to think that those incidents are only being used as an excuse?
I agree, Tom, that there is no excuse for RCSC to not divulge the number of incidents at Fairway, or any of their other sites for that matter. Just releasing the numbers in the last 6 - 12 months does not violate any laws, bylaws or Board policies. As I said in another post on a different site, there was no hesitation when RCSC told us about the person with a stun gun at the dog park. How does this differ? I don't need to know dates or even the what the incidents are about. Just the facts, sir!
The last person summed it up alright. What the heck kind of people live here? Nobody shops anymore? Every day on my way home from work the parking lots are full at Bell and Grand. Are they all employees? Kierland is always full on weekends. People are very excited about Prasada. I know my mom used to like Bon Worth here and Damons. Not everyone shops online for everything. Some things you have to physically shop for, a special event, whatever. Doesn't anyone here want a higher end restaurant? I thought he acted like an angry, angry man. If a child or grand child of mine behaved that way in public, well let's just say it would never happen again. Don't go to any meetings, can't due to job. Doubt I ever will. Only watch exchange meetings, that was a first and hope the last. No way for a grown man to act.
He wasn't always like that!
You had to know him prior to 2017.
That's how I choose to remember him.
Fascinating to see two anonymous posters sharing their thoughts. Love the discussion regarding issues, your personal attacks are out of line but i'm growing used to it of late. Let's get back to the topic of shopping centers anon #1. Is it your position all 16 of them are doing just fine?
I'm sure you realize they were all built from 1960-1980; right? And of course you know that was well before the "big box' explosion and way before Amazon became a thing; right? The sad fact is bricks and mortar have been crushed over the past ten-15 years and it will only get worse.
And of course you know two of the larger centers have only survived by converting to predominantly delivering medical services. And of course you know summers are brutal for most local businesses? We lose anywhere between 20-30% of our population to those returning to second homes or traveling to cooler climates to escape the heat. Then add into the equation those 110 degree days where those remaining here simply don't want to venture out.
But thanks for sharing you wisdom that retail life in Sun City is good. Tell it to the local businesses. I'm sure that will help them meet this months rent. And as long as we are chatting, you want to talk about banking and that evolution? Nuh, probably not.
My reactions are passionate. Sorry if i touched a nerve; not really. But if you want a true test of how offended the members were listen to the applause when i finished. Go ahead and spin it however you want, i know there's a handful of you who are haters and want to paint a picture that is unfortunately (for you) not even close to the truth.
Keep spinning guys, it's all good by me. The facts will always outweigh your fiction.
Folks, A bit of introspection here. We cannot live for applause and adulation. Nor can we hide in the weeds and sling arrows at one another. In my opinion we must embrace the concept of community with all the complexity, compromise and difficulty it brings. We cannot just coexist with one another when we harbor ill will about past decisions and leadership. Success requires picking the best future recreational compromises between competing visions based on solid data including projected member activity hours, and the like. The process needs to be open so members can see what options they have and how the board evaluated each and made tradeoffs, if they so choose. I will leave this for your consideration.
I totally agree With you. I think this board is doing better than any of the boards I’ve seen in the last 18 years. Let’s give them a chance Membership.
What previous anonymous was myself, Sheryl Mcclain. I’m sorry I did not put my name in there.
The Sun City Posse could be a big help in that. They do a lot of communication with the sheriffs department. Maybe we could have the posse commander come and speak at RCSC concerning the homelessness that the posse.
I found above comments fascinating; those who truly know me, would tell you i could care less about "likes" or "adulation." It's simply not how i am built. My entire 21 years in Sun City was focused around a single concept; leaving the community better off than when we moved here.
It was exactly what i told the board president (2011) over coffee before i was seated on the board when he asked, "what was my agenda?" A better Sun City was my response and he said, "no really what are you trying to accomplish?"
Nothing has changed. In fact i quit the Advocates in 2024 because we had accomplished our goal. We had one clearly defined and stated position: Elect a majority of board members who believed the members voices should be heard. Reaching that milestone, my efforts were done...or so i thought.
Little did i think those we supported would turn on each other in the ugliness we are now seeing and reading. It shouldn't have surprised me, as power struggles have reached far greater noise levels in Sun City than the latest we are witnessing. I just expected better out of smart, talented people.
A commenter posted above the board is doing far better than they have in the recent past. He/she was spot on. The board is far more approachable and far more engaging than i had expected. Are they perfect? Hardly? Are they making mistakes? Yup. Are they learning from them? It certainly looks like it. Time will ultimately be the judge and jury; not me.
Sadly, non-profit boards are political in nature. Not in the sense of politics, but in that there are often alliances formed within the group of nine and when there are differences, the majority rules. Those in the minority either have to work harder to bring those who see things differently around or realize they are in the minority and will simply be out voted.
The road back is long, slow and painful. The self-inflicted mistakes (think library) are hard to watch; but the response/push-back by the membership was exciting to see. The sooner it is put to bed the better.
The next big thing will be the 5 year reserve study, apparently coming out before the summer break. That will go a long way in satisfying those clamoring for more transparency and for those of us longing for the RCSC to function like a professionally run organization.
Happy Memorial Day to all. Please, remember why we have it; not just so we can have hot dogs and cookouts with friends and family.
The further removed i become from all things Sun City, the better i understand how hard the climb back will be. I've written for years how history matters and all too often i was attacked for being trapped in the past. So foolish. History has always been the great educational tool.
The lament of late is for better board training. No, really? Board training only mattered if you wanted the board to actually make decisions, not just endorse the product the general manager felt we needed. It's a long road back.
But wait, it gets worse. There was a time, before 2006, when "resident experts" filled the needs we are now clamoring for. The community was built around committees of volunteers who took on short-term time commitments to help shape the board's decisions. Like now, they could only make recommendations, but those suggestions carried a lot of weight.
None more important than the legal affairs committee. This amazing group (made up of retired judges and lawyers) reviewed every language change to our documents, any potential issues with legal and federal law and other issues that straddled the legal line.
They were the first to go. The argument was they had no standing as lawyers in AZ. The reality is the RCSC has an attorney, but he worked as an add-on to the group of advisors not a go-to guy to get the board to swallow what the gm wanted.
That was only one of several committees kicked to the curb. The rest were neutered and left to function without much purpose or cause. Then it got worse as we decided we should become the "fun city," and tell everyone to just enjoy themselves. Volunteering became less important. But, was it?
The move away from the "city of volunteers" was problematic. Because along with it, we decided to market ourselves as being really inexpensive (dare i say cheap?). The effort to keep costs down came at a price, and honestly at a cost we are all now feeling; both monetarily and internally.
At the last exchange a member lamented empty buildings, the homeless issue and the idea we needed to rebrand the community. Those who watched know the RCSC cannot do anything about the homeless or the empty shopping centers.
Her point would have been better served as to the importance of marketing Sun City; like Webb did. The community was sold as "the new active way of life." Everything they did was marketing the community as something better than what they had at home. That opportunity still exists to this day, we just refuse to even try and do that.
The lament is people are moving here and not using the amenities. Duh, when you sell cheap, you get buyers who want just that; cheap. Then when costs go up they moan how they don't use anything. It's a downward spiral that will continue until we start promoting just how good and just how much we have here. Getting people to move here for what we have is way better than having them move here because it is a cheap place to live.
The beauty of this discussion is none of what i am saying is new or an original thought on my part. It's simply a reflection of what we know from those first 50 years. When we ran from our history, the problems began. Fixing them is possible, it will not be easy.
I am hoping members will support Management's idea of a volunteer day. One morning a year where we let our actions speak much louder than our words. The GM and the Prides work together to identify meaningful and doable project we can all be proud to accomplish. We could truly paint the town and accomplish what no other community like ours has ever accomplished; community unity. You may say I'm a dreamer but I am not the only one...
Just curious but...I wonder how many of those who bought homes in Sun City were purchasing a second home?
The reason for moving here, dare I say, has become less about the amenities we offer and more about escaping Winter?
And YES, I want board training. We seem to care more about filling the empty slots than we are about qualifications. And if that's the way it's going to be, then let's at least give them some training!
No harm in volunteering but every body needs to understand what's expected of them and how to get there.
Any idea to bring members back into an ownership mentality is good. In that we know data matters, let's start with a scary stat that helps at least understand a small part of the problem; the RCSC membership is down between 6,000-8,000. It just depends on how far back you go in our history. The high water mark was right around 40,000 members.
We now hover around 32,000. When property rentals became a thing, locals and investments groups started buying up properties. It was a mixed blessing as multiple home owners paid the fees and got nothing in return. On the other hand, it was money in the bank for the RCSC, and it got even better when renters purchased privilege cards.
Those renters aren't a bad thing, they just change the equation. No voice, whether they buy the card or not, as our documents prevent them from voting, speaking or running for office. The wall we built keeps them from acting like owners.
Knowing the numbers are diminished and knowing the societal changes with new buyers working later in life creates an urgency to re-evaluate where we are. Who fills what gaps and who can volunteer where and when begins with creating a process to evaluate that. For years we were told we have no right to access that information from new buyers.
Odd because at the point of purchase we have immediate access to them. Historically we know new -comers coffee's were wildly popular. We morphed into the one big yearly gathering at Sundial in January, but it is so big and so much information it becomes unwieldy. Smaller more intimate settings would be easy and setting a schedule for a morning and evening session at an hour and a half once a month would easily be doable.
Organizations build a culture from within. Once it is set, it's hard to break from. Anything we can do to change that internal structure is simply a starting point. The RCSC has begun to move in a forward direction. Admittedly it has been slow and at times dysfunctional.
From my perspective a really good first effort, but there's a lot of work to do.
I guess my only point was that when people purchased a home in Sun City back in the 60's, it was their new permanent home. I don't believe many had the financial means to purchase a vacation home, at least my parents didn't.
So that's when people who lived here were all-in on the community thing! I know my parents were. Both are in the Bowlers Hall of Fame, and Dad died on the racquetball court at Bell and that's just the way he would have wanted to go!
I remember when the ladies from the Welcome Wagon showed up. Today, with all the rentals, Airbnb's, group homes, rehab homes, hospice homes, etc. the Welcome Wagon no longer exists and people are simply living in their own little bubbles and care less and less about the community as a whole. You see that every month in the attendance at the Board meetings.
I doubt we can ever bring back the community thing to where it once was, but surely there are things that can make it better...I hope!
It will be interesting to see the commentary regarding your post Tom. When I stated similar opinion months ago it was pretty brutal. Sun City is not what it was. It's showing its age. Stores didn't leave because of the internet, if that were true the outdoor malls in Scottsdale and Phoenix as well as the little sidewalk cafes would not be thriving. SCW has about 9 to 13 restaurants still up and running. Tivoli left SC and is right across RH Johnson from SCW and is doing very well. Then there is this blog. 'Advocates' calling each other names. Saying the residents of Sun City are "obtuse". I'm sure that statement insulted current residents and certainly would not make a potential resident enthusiastic about purchasing a home here.
Josie P.
There's more than hoping Tom, we've learned along the way that organizations need to set goals, develop plans and then measure their outcomes. It was how Sun City was built and why it was so successful.
One can only laugh at the idea Sun City is failing. When using a method that ignores what is happening within our society, we lose sight of reality. The pandemic changed the way the country shops, eats out, banks and participates. All just part of life's evolution. Pretending otherwise is folly.
The RCSC made a decision years back (circa 2006) to try and become a hybrid of what we were and how we were built. On its face, it could have worked. The outcomes tell us otherwise.
From those failures, the Sun City Advocates were born. While the urges were there to try and do more, be more, our one goal was to elect candidates who stated they believed the membership had to have a voice, a place in the self-governance platform Sun City was built on. We didn't care about their agenda other than them supporting the critical role the membership should play.
We did exactly that. Now the test will be to move forward and grow the circle of those interested and willing to play a role in rebuilding the pieces that were stripped away. There's a boatload of things to be done; from board training to restructuring the committees. I would argue, and have, marketing the community will play an integral role in that rebuild.
I hope we can get there and i know, history has proven we have done so many times over.
Bill, I don't think believing Sun City is failing is a laughing matter. I believe there's a lot of things out of anybody's control, such as who moves here, how much will they participate in the community, and of course those homes being converted into who knows what!
I love your optimism but I think being a realist is a little more attuned to what is actually and currently happening.
How do we fix that?
So let's start with the data Tom, 1600 homes sold last year. Yes it's down from previous years, but so was everywhere else in the country. That has more to do with interest rates than anything else.
To your real question about how to fix it; Marketing. Plain, pure and simple. Everything we offer in the way of amenities is less expensive than anywhere else. Golf? 10 pin bowling? Clubs? Events? Entertainment? All far less expensive. Homes and taxes? Less expensive. Take your pick; the biggest problem is we keep it all a secret. DEVCO promoted the hell out of "the new active way of life," we treat it as a throw-away. It's utter foolishness.
The curious and painful fact for singles is the per lot assessment has worked to flatten increases (for couples). I'm not talking whether it's fair or not (it's not btw in my opinion), but the reality of a capped number of homes (27,500) where the assessment is on a per person basis has a compounding impact as more singles buy into the community.
One of the reasons Sun City West (18,000 rooftops) exploded past our rates (around 2000 they were within $10 per person per year) was we changed to the flat lot rate while they calculated theirs per person. 5 years ago they posted a report showing 40 plus percent of their owners were singles. That high percentage meant less bodies to cover their yearly costs and rates skyrocketed (for couples).
Not arguing for or against, it's just an anomaly that works from a marketing standpoint that is far more attractive to couples. If they aggressively promoted that "two for one," Sun City becomes even more marketable.
Gary Osher and i authored a report regarding the next group of home buyers, Gen X. They are just starting and several things stood out. Many felt they would be working later in life than boomers. We also know they expect technology to be far more advanced than we are; so that clearly is a priority. Throw in those continuing to work and activities that take a lot of time (think golf), will diminish in play.
That doesn't mean golf will go away, but it does mean we damn well better market it for those who are going to retire and still want to play the game. The point here is no decisions should be made in a vacuum. They should be made with an eye to the future and the evolution that is upon us.
So marketing our community as having the most amenities for the least money in comparison with all other active adult communities is the key?
Not using the word cheap, of course.
Why havent the Sun City FB and Instagram pages been updated since last year?
Bill with all due respect you have to factor in what the 55 year old crowd wants. For example my niece and about 12 to 20 friends cycle once a week to one of several outdoor bistros for breakfast in Scottsdale. They are still into nightlife and dancing. They hike, go tubing and are very active. They don’t want to drive 45 minutes to an hour to go to a nice restaurant. They go to the Barrett Jackson auto show every year. They want to be where the action is.
I understand you have a deep-rooted love for Sun City, but the kids coming up on retirement want the nicer things. Just like we all show signs of aging so is Sun City. It’s not as pretty and appealing to the eye as the new retirement communities. I have 5 nieces and nephews aged from 50 to 60. Not one wants any part of Sun City. This is not anything personal against you or anyone else who lives here it’s just a fact.
I feel like I am in a bubble myself sometimes. I miss going to Angela’s, Vogue, Portifino’s West after work and would like nicer restaurants here as well which is why I want to move to SCW before I’m too old to get out and shop and play. (That coupled with things I see happening here.)
The changes you are talking about won’t happen till I am long gone. Carpe Diem!
Josie P
PS: Yes Anon, the most without proper upkeep. More is not always better.
Agreed.
Life is short. If you really want to live in SCW, why not do it sooner rather than later? Unless of course health is an issue and I do understand those concerns too.
SCW has a lot of the same issues we have here such as crime and homeless. It is nicer though, I agree. I go to the Mexican restaurant that used to be in SC now in SCW.
Have a good evening.
Yep Anon! Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Made a mistake. At least pretty much packed, one last obligation to take care of.
Good evening to you as well
Josie P
Complete that obligation quickly. Move before the summer really starts to sizzle! Best wishes for a successful escape from Sun City. Hope Sun City West is everything and more than you expect.
Well Anon, your concern is certainly interesting, but thanks. God doesn't work according to the weather.
Josie P
After writing more than a million words regarding Sun City, i am almost always surprised by those who think they know what i said/wrote. I most often incorporate our history into the discussion, because history as a tool is far better than my (or anyone's) opinion.
My most often maligned perspective is i had all of the answers to the problems facing Sun City. I had one and it is and was the same as i moved through everything i wrote: "the community, those living here, had the answers." We know from our history that was the way we became as successful as we did.
Ownership by those living in Sun City and becoming involved created nearly perfect documents. I watched in horror in 2006-2009 as they started to dismantle them. I had zero interest in running for the board, until the changes were so egregious.
Once elected to the board i had no ability to stop them. I could document them, write and speak against them and ultimately vote no, but as we all know, the majority rules. It is how boards work.
There is no better example than the Lakes Club. We had the potential to buy it circa 2012/2013. The nursing school had closed and the owners wanted out. The land was owned by the Sun Health Foundation while the building was owned by a private corporation. We toured it and the potential was enormous.
I didn't argue over whether i thought it was right for us to buy; Carole and i begged the board and general manager to bring the question to the membership. They refused and we lost the building. Had the members liked the deal, Sun City would be a wholly different community today than it became.
Members would have felt empowered and part of the process. The board and GM wanted no part of that because we/they had been moving away from the community and committee involvement for 8 or 9 years and going back would have stopped them in their tracks.
Which is merely a tutorial on the discussion we are all caught up in now. How do we address the needs of the old timers, the new comers and, those not yet living here? The answer is pretty simple, we ask them, we invite them to participate. We start from the day they move here and we create a structure where they feel they are a part of the process we call self-governance and not someone on the outside looking in.
One of the best experiences in my 21 years here was being a part of the 80 plus person "working group" following the survey and the focus groups. I met new, way younger home owners who were engaged and had great ideas. They were different from mine, which was all the better.
Our history has taught us our success came from listening and working with members who were invited to participate. There is a need to create levels of participation based on their availability, experience and interests. It is how and why we succeeded and if we are to fix the problems we are facing, it is our path forward.
Not everyone wants to live in Sun City as they age; that's a good thing. With 27,500 rooftops, we need to shape our community to fit the needs of those who do want what we offer. That's why marketing is so important.
No one can remember everything anyone says or writes. They interpret, just like you do.
Started to look into the history of History quite some time ago out of curiosity about claims of people about History. It’s kind of interesting.
A person can write about the startup and history of Sun City as many times as they want. Or the history of any subject they choose for that matter. You cannot change the past, so writing words about how Sun City came to be by the same person gives facts as well that person's perspective. And only that person.
People’s interpretation of history can vary, but the historical facts remain the same. Most likely you would not read a book about an event in history written by the same author 10 times, but you might read about the same event by a different author for another perspective. Or even 5 different authors.
History changes on a daily basis. We all have a different point of view about yesterday. Things started changing here, in Sun City, in 2003 (my opinion). What has been done cannot be changed. You can’t change the future by what happened in the past, unless you are Carnac. The only thing we can do is learn from mistakes, but even that is not etched in stone. Look at recent changes. Self driving cars, hoverboards, computer watches, The Cloud. These are pretty darn recent too.
I don’t understand why RCSC does not fix the now. Repair our buildings with the money they have. Why wait till they fall apart or it costs many more dollars to repair in 10 years? How in the hell can anyone predict the future? How do we know what people are going to want 20 years from now? People plan for retirement for years! Some plans work and others don’t. If we could predict the future I would not be living here.
RCSC BOD have been running amok for a while now. When terms are up current members recommend future members to the community, probably with the same values and wants. It’s just a vicious cycle.
Josie P
Very insightful, Josie.
I hope not.
You never know.
Try and stay positive.
No clue what you are talking about Anon. Stay positive?
Josie P
Some very smart people with good intentions may run.
Okey dokey! My recent experience with Anons is not to trust a word they say. I even tried to be an Anon and was outed. That being said, trust but verify all, and we can't do that with people who will not show their name.
Josie P.
I'm mostly a Good Witch. :)
Ah! A female Anon! ;)
Josie P
For those readers of this site unfamiliar with the Del Webb Sun Cities Museum, there is a mountain of information, data and materials that came straight from Webb/DEVCO. The sheer volume is spectacular and when you throw in video, photographs, personal interviews and the like following and documenting the history is pretty simple.
But wait, there's more. My friend and fellow historian Ben Roloff has spent the past 6 or 7 years visiting the state archives. He has chronicled from the newspapers of the day, starting in 1958 (in Youngtown), the news as it was printed either a day later or in some cases, a week later (when the paper was printed weekly) and he has it printed in 5 massive folders.
So it is even more valuable, he has it stored electronically and created a searchable data base. It was a herculean effort as everything was on micro film and he took the time to read every page printed for articles of interest. The Museum will be the recipient when his work is done and it is invaluable.
I first became involved with the Museum in 2009. In the past 15 years i have spent more than 1000 hours in the building and even more reading at home. Their collections are worth taking the time to read and understand how and why the community was so successful. Especially given the experts said it would fail miserably.
But alas, for those who don't know, aren't familiar or simply dislike me personally, pretending it's all just a made up narrative is way easier than actually taking the time to know what one is talking about or writing. It's the new normal, make crap up and hope others believe it.
The classic example of the value of our history could have/should have been used in 2003. Some have lamented the RCSC decision to go to a per lot assessment rather than a per person. The only time in our history we had a per lot was during the first year we were open.
The cost to join (yes, it was voluntary) was $40 per household. About 60% paid the fee, and Community Center (now Oakmont) was in financial trouble when DEVCO gave (deeded) it to the members the end of the year. The struggle was real and lasted for years.
Sales were so brisk, the company by the end of the year, had moved into the next building phase (New Life Units 3 and above) and had already started Town Hall (Fairway). Along with the new center, buyers would sign a "facilities agreement whereby they would agree to pay a "per person rate." With everyone paying their fair share, the rate dropped to $12 per person.
Sadly the members living in New Life 1 and 2 (around Community Center), clung to the optional membership. It divided the community and wasn't resolved until 1967. It was an ugly arrangement that was resolved when DEVCO spent some money on remodels at the first center and members voted to sign a facilities agreement.
By then, the decision had been made to move north of Grand Ave. The third center (Town Hall South/Mountain View) had opened and those south of Grand wanted the opportunity/assurance the amenities north of Grand would be open to them.
I have no idea if that story was factored into the decision made in 2003 to move to a lot assessment, but it should have been. History matters, it always has, it always will.
Oh Bill. Talk about not getting it. Yes we can all go to the museum and look through the history, newspaper articles, and all the wonderful information available for all who are interested. Believe it or not there are other people who have personal information
But wait! I had the privilege of working with the CEO of Sun Health Corporation (appointed in 1989) for 9 years and continued on for 8 more years with the remaining team post Banner. He had amazing up close and personal insights into this community with the two former CEO's. Jane Freeman was a regular in the office as she was active on the Boswell and SH Corp boards.
You can write 2 million words on the history of Sun City but the content won't change. Facts are facts. Speaking only for myself I can't read the same book over and over.
I'm sure it's difficult for you to believe someone of your generation has been coming here longer than you. My first visit was in 1981. There were times I was here for two months several times a year.
I am not arguing the facts of the past. I could not care less about the history. It happened, it can't be changed and evidentially no one is learning from it or Sun City would not be having the issues it is today. For the love of God this place can't even have board application packets available electronically. If you want to volunteer to be a board member you must pick it up in person and I am assuming hand write the application instead of logging onto the portal and downloading a copy and completing electronically.
Hey, maybe we still are in the pre-computer 60's.
Josie P
Which is why i simply don't waste time on or with you Josie. You hate Sun City, you've told us that a dozen times or more. I've known a handful of others who felt the same disdain/dislike for the community most of us live in and love. They ultimately moved on and tried to find the place where they are at peace with themselves. You on the other hand want so badly to make others share your hatred and resentment before you move.
Jane Freeman was an amazing woman who loved this community more than most and gave back to it more than anyone i know. I stopped by the nursing home she died in and as she lay in the fetal position my heart went out to her and everything she did to make Sun City the great place it was and still is.
Hopefully you can finally find your place in the sun. Then maybe in a small way you can begin to do what she did by helping take ownership in the community she embraced as her own.
You are so sad. I said nothing about Jane other than I knew her. But there you go. You must one up everyone You saw her in the nursing home she died in. Wow! A truly selfless person would not need to broadcast that information, but wait! How would anyone know how awesome you are?
I am sharing my opinion of what is going on in Sun City. Sorry (not) if it is not the same as your opinion.
I take ownership of the things I want/need to take ownership of. Jane did what she loved as do I. Sorry Bill, I cannot "love" an inanimate object. I like my friends, even love my neighbors I have known for 20 years. However I will not blast on social media the good things I do daily. I don't need accolades like you.
You are correct, I don't like what Sun City has become. I thought is was awesome in the 80's and 90's, but you go ahead and spin what you think I think and feel any way you like. Now go on and get me banned from this site. It's what you do. It's what you tried to do on TOSC. Ban the books, tear down the statues, silence those who don't agree with you.
Josie P
For those of you following along with how residents feel about Sun City, let's not go back historically, let's look at the survey from a little over a year ago. Hell, don't take my word for it, the RCSC/ASU survey asked the membership how they felt regarding Sun City offering a "sense of community."
Here was there response:
Q: Do you feel a sense of community in Sun City?
"The presence of a sense of community is a key indicator of community health. A strong majority
of respondents indicated that they felt a sense of community at Sun City. Seventy-seven percent
(77%) feel a sense of community, while 15% are not sure, and only eight percent responded that
they did not feel a sense of community. Minimal differences existed across groups; men, longer-
term residence, not employed, and Year-round residents felt a slightly stronger sense of
community than their counterparts."
I could post multiple surveys conducted over the years and the results would be similar. Those buying into Sun City have always felt an affinity, a sense of ownership and flat out told us they loved having chosen it as their home.
But then, what's not to love?
Not looking for an argument here Bill but the facts are only 17.6% of those who were informed about the ASU survey even responded! And out of that 17.6% there were still 23% who weren't sure about, or feel a sense of community.
And you have to assume that those who did respond did so because they are those who DO actually care about the community. Seems like the vast majority of those who didn't respond could care less? So it seems that the survey was kinda preaching to the choir?
Granted, there are probably more Members out there who were satisfied, but just didn't want to respond, but really should have.
So unfortunately, I believe the results of that ASU survey were weighted?
I still would like to know what percentage of 30,000+ Members do not use any of the amenities at all before we consider spending any money.
I agree that History matters, and hind-sight is 20/20 but you can't always base the future on the past. Different time, different generations, constant turnovers, and people use to different life-styles based on the part of the Country they came from!
I don't have the answer but I do know you can't ask a bunch of 70 year old's what the next generation or future potential residents are going to want.
But with that said; this community is much more need of help with their governance than they do worrying about what each individual wants...NOW!
Interesting argument Tom and as you know, polling is typically done using statistical norms and then weighted based on sample size. You also know the number of respondents was far higher than projected (10 fold plus if memory serves me) which was typical of past community surveys. We have some of them at the museum and you are more than welcome to take a look. Who knows, your parents may have even participated in them.
But alas, i guess the idea of listening to the empirical data from a self-proclaimed hater of Sun City (whose relatives would never consider moving here) is far more valuable than the survey just conducted.
I'm more interested/willing to listen to those (irrespective of age) who want the community to become all it can be than someone who hates it and can't wait to move.
Just one man's opinion though eh?
It would be nice if you are going to quote something you give all the data. The ASU survey had approximately 5,000 responses out of a population 37,700 people according to the U.S. Census Bureau. That's around 13%. Average responses are between 5% and 30% so it was an ok response rate.
I could not find the cost of the survey. Do we know if it was worth it? We never heard anything about follow up of the results. Seems like once the results were published, we never heard about it again.
If anyone wants to view the survey in its entirety here is the link.
https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/RCSC-Survey-Results_May-3-2023.pdf
Enjoy!
Josie P
What's wrong with the truth Bill? Can't handle that my 50 to 60 year old nieces and nephews don't like it here? Why would that even bother you? Do a survey of that age group, I am speaking for 5 people, which I stated.
I don't know how many times I have to agree with you about the fact that I do not like what has happened to Sun City. I will not sit here and praise something I have watched deteriorate for 24 years. Do you want me to lie? I am sure not, you just want me silenced because there are people who agree with me. It was much better here in the 1980's and 1990's. Do I need to put that in all caps so you can hear me?
We need another library uprising, but from the attendance of residents at board meetings I doubt anything like that will happen again unless what they are telling us about the "talks" for the library contracts turns out not to be true.
Josie P
Fascinating when people spout without knowing what they are talking about. The survey i mentioned from past years had 1000 respondents, this one had over 5000. Those conducting the survey had felt comfortable with the 1000 respondents (out of roughly 40,000 members) being an adequate reflection for the overall community's projections. Those of you who love polling know exactly how it works and pretending otherwise is folly.
Last time JP, i have no interest in trading barbs with you. Citing your relatives who have listened to you rip Sun City and how much you hate it as the sounding board for our future is ludicrous on it's face.
I'll take the data from the survey as a far more true measuring tool than your off the cuff comments impacted by your hatred of all things Sun City. Feel whatever you need feel, most of us living here love it.
I will give you this: Sun City isn't for everyone. Some folks need the expensive cost of nightlife in Scottsdale, trendy shopping malls with overpriced crap and finally the exploding property taxes that come with the east valley.
Beyond that, most of us living within our means and enjoying a quieter way of life are more than contented with our own little slice of heaven. Hopefully you can find yours.
(ASU SURVEY) “We never heard anything about follow up of the results. Seems like once the results were published, we never heard about it again.”
MISSED IT? Here you go.
RCSC Long Range Planning Recommendations
Subcommittee: ASU Survey (March 2024)
https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/2024-03-28-LRP-ASU-Subcommittee-Presentation-and-Recommendations.pdf
CONTENT 15 pages
Engaging ASU
Deliverables from ASU
What we learned
Our course of action
Thank You
Additional detail: LRP / ASU Subcommittee Report Recommendations, Sources, and Comments ASU Data Review
Hmmmm. Yes they do like that lifestyle and can afford it. Their father is uber wealthy and brought his 3 boys into the family business so the taxes in PV are not an issue for them. Their father is an extremely insightful man.
The other two are just regular folks living happily in Oregon.
As far as hating Sun City hate is a word I would not use in general conversation. I don't remember using that word, yet you keep saying I did. Maybe it just fits into your narrative. Or it could be just the way you speak, kind of like "nobody gives a shit who you are".
I'm just guessing here, but if residents took the time to read this blog they would not be happy. Especially this little statement from a former board member and current committee member.
"while I found your explanations spot on and easily understandable, you must know that a good percentage of our population is obtuse at best and wouldn’t understand non-profits if Big Bird came down and explained it."
Let's not stop there though, let's insult the car and dog club too.
"Then we have the dog club which to me is the like the car club with fur. I spoke with the club president when this first surfaced and learned that while teaching River c how to run in between sticks, the real purpose is for the two legged creatures to hang out and shoot the bull. So what they want is an air conditioned social club house so they can hang out, throw seasonal parties while Ruffy learns to run in circles to catch his/her tail.”
The residents have no clue.
jp
Thanks Anon! Did that go out via email? It says presentation for LRP.
Survey results ready and available for members 5/16/23
Slide presentation to LRP 3/28/24
Items identified as important by members a year ago are just now being talked about, but the PAC and T-Bird building are the hot topics which will cost many millions. Items current residents, while not cheap, are a whole lot less expensive. Walking paths, socializing spaces, fitness instructor and upscale dining. (might be the tough one to get a restaurant here)
The folks who have lived here are not asking for much (my opinion) and yet the focus is on who will be here 20 years from now and what will they want.
Alrighty then!
JP
JP - LRP presented it at the RCSC Board meeting, March 28, 2024. Minutes and video available on RCSC website.
Yes, thank you. It has already been brought to my attention. 72 members present out of approx 37,000. Around 760 views of the video.
Several months ago someone was very impressed with the number of views one of the meetings had so I did some research.
How does YouTube tabulate views:
A view is counted on YouTube when a user watches a video for a minimum of 30 seconds straight.
Yes, YouTube does count repeat views. However, to maintain accuracy and prevent abuse, it employs a sophisticated algorithm that filters and monitors views, ensuring that only genuine and meaningful views contribute to a video's overall count.
YouTube does add views when a watch page is refreshed. But, the video must be watched for a total of 30 seconds. I have done this on numerous occasions over a period of days. I also have a VPN and sometimes log in on my device from Las Vegas or England.
If communication is key why is RCSC not doing it? No email blast.
jp
How RCSC board meetings, before and after, are currently publicized:
1. Sun City Update Monthly Newsletter
2. Your Sun City AZ Week
3. RCSC website Board and Committee Meetings
4. E-blast advance notification
5. E-blast when summary & video are available on RCSC website & their YouTube channel
6. Sun City Independent’s articles that Scott Tynes reports.
What else do you suggest??
I agree with you on all of this.
Excluding the golfers, no one in my area uses the facilities or cares about anything except the fees and annual assessment.
I've come to accept this.
Very well written.
Thank you.
The beauty of Communicate, Educate and Participate is that all ideas have a right to be heard whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees with them.
I wish they would have defined what they meant by SOON.
What else do you suggest??
Anon
I was referring to the ASU follow up only and suggest you re-read my post. The slide presentation was not sent out to the members via email blast. Not many attend meetings or view them on you tube.
You can spin what I said however you like tho. If I was a betting person my money would be on not very many people know what became of the survey.
jp
Information is available in multiple formats. It’s a responsible member’s decision if, when and how they choose to access. What criteria do you think qualifies for e-blasts? Only 5,000 members are signed up for e-blasts.
So Chris, zero is better than 5000, or should I say 72 present at meeting and Lord only knows how many viewed on You Tube. What is the cost of the email blast vs no communication with members. If communication is key why is there no communication?
jp
RCSC encourages an informed membership with communications easily accessed, but cannot force them to do so. (Anonymous)
So don't be proactive and use email blast. Why do we have a communication committee, or don't we. Well I guess most of the board must feel like the person who posted this:
"while I found your explanations spot on and easily understandable, you must know that a good percentage of our population is obtuse at best and wouldn’t 7nderstand non-profits if Big Bird came down and explained it."
So once again it's member fault we are not updated. I will add this info to my little survey.
jp
One of the joys of growing old is learning to accept life and what it has given us. Soon to be 76, i have no interest in fighting with people online (or otherwise) over perceived wrongs. I've come to understand it's simply a waste of whatever time i have left on this earth.
From the very first day we moved to Sun City, i came to understand just how special it was and still is. We were by no means rich, but we had a solid income in retirement and quickly saw the value and values of living in a community filled with opportunities.
Transitioning from a workaholic was easy when the things to do are limitless and so reasonably priced. Heck, i even tried golf for several years. But beyond all the play things, the opportunity to give back and be a part of something as unique as Sun City was always my focus.
I won't bore you with the list of stuff i committed to; it's never been about bragging rights or doing more or being better than the next guy. My goal was and still is to see Sun City survive and flourish for the next generation of home owners in this community. We are on that path.
The handful of naysayers and haters are the tiny minority. They've elected to live out the remainder of their life howling at the moon about how horrible the community is. Portraying everyone and everything as bad or evil is wholly different than disagreeing over policies, direction or even principles.
But alas, too many are exactly what society and some elected officials want us to believe: We are all victims of a vast conspiracy and retribution is their only salvation. Sad because most of us know life is pretty darned good, especially those who have found their place in the sun. Sun City Arizona.
Are you ever just silent? New info on SC Foundation Bill. You fibbed to me. Surprise...not
Since they do not publish the minutes of their meetings or their financial reports (which are required to be public by the IRS for 501(c)3 organizations ...........needs to be addressed/reported
I can attest to at least a degree of confidentiality. ..........general population would probably like to know that their private financial information is not exactly safe with SCF. Well Bill maybe no one gives a shit who I am, but I would bet they care who they are.
their application process is very rigid and too extensive for the amount of money the Foundation disperses............speaks volumes
At one meeting, I heard some on the Foundation Board say some disparaging words about the applicants such as, "Many just spent all their money instead of saving." ............board members think poor people are not responsible
"A lot of people know how to work the system.".............Board thinks poor people are underhanded and sneaky
The application says that the person seeking assistance needs to be 67 years old, but they will make exceptions. However, it was said. "We don't want that information to get out there.".........Lets discriminate against a certain age group
For a philanthropic organization, those don't seem to be very charitable comments. .......Really????
"As you can see, we are in good shape." One Director joked, "Let's have a party!" ....,,,.....Woo Hoo!! We held back so Let's Party!!!!! -----Kevin Bacon in Footloose
32 people received $350 of gift cards from the Santas for Senior project.
Four other people were approved.
One died and the other three weren't home when the Foundation tried, on more than one occasion, to deliver the cards.
My thoughts were, "Can't you call or email them to set up a time to either deliver them or pick them up at the Corporate Office? Maybe even use certified mail to get them to the recipient?"
The extra $1800.00 of gift cards were put into the safe for next Christmas. Again, couldn't the recipients get $500 or maybe give them some at Easter or Thanksgiving time. Nope! ..........SCF does not give a damn about the "below poverty level income folks"
Sun City.......A great place to live!
for clarity my responses to the person who wrote this are post (dots)...............
JP
I'm always fascinated about how little people know, but still spout off like they are experts. I get it, they are angry and just want to lash out and claim victim-hood. The difficulty always is caught up in the need to make stuff up, or twist others words to make them fit their own narrative. Too bad there isn't more joy in their life but the new normal is the art of whining.
The bigger distraction is the harm they do with their lies and innuendo. Attacking the RCSC Sun City Foundation with allegations and nonsense may make them feel good, but it is a disservice and a discredit to the work they do and have done.
Could they do more, sure. Until a year or two ago their total resources were always in the 200k range. Most foundations try and use their investment income for the year to cover the money they give out. Spending principle is a sure fire way to go broke.
And then i read comments and cringe as they are twisted to make the VOLUNTEER board members look like criminals. I was president of the org from 2012-2014 and watched month after month as board members conducted in-home interviews to determine need.
So we're clear here; how many of you know how the federal poverty levels are determined? In 2012 we passed "criteria" to qualify and if memory serves me we set it at 125% of the fed rate. That was the easy part, because all they look at is a person's yearly revenue/income.
Lots of Sun City residents and RCSC members meet the criteria. It was truly meaningless in relationship to the rest of the story. Did the have savings? Did they have stocks and bonds? Did they own their home outright? Did they own another property somewhere else?
The home ownership question was one of the hardest, but we determined it needed to be considered. A home purchased 40 years ago for 100K could have a market value of 300k or more. If it was fee and clear, should it be considered an asset? Because if someone applied who met the federal poverty guidelines and had $300k in the bank, we didn't even give them an interview. Why should home ownership be treated any differently?
We always (and apparently still do) have limited resources to help those who truly need their fees paid. We always understood the rec fee was only a small part of their overall financial problem, but when we could help them, it was one less problem on their plate.
It seems to me as the RCSC raises fees to play catch-up, the Foundation will have a far bigger role to play. We've always argued/lamented they have been inadequate in promotion. Hopefully those leading it will do a better job in making members aware of it.
Last but not least, not all foundations are created equal. I choke every time a commenter tells us how well run their former employer ran their foundation. The 990's are online for both. You can look for yourself, but there's kind of a difference between one where the top three officers take a million dollars in compensation (wages and expenses) a year to one that has never, NEVER, had a paid employee. It's like comparing a Yugo to a 947. There is none.
So the disparaging comments made by board members about the very clients they are supposed to help are acceptable to you? I, and many others, were shocked and sickened by this.
The source of this information is very credible.
Feel free to dance the little sidestep on this one too.
Not my original facts Bill. I just commented on them as I have up close and personal experience with RCSC Foundation and my concern regarding personal financial information being shared. You speak in the same manner Bill. My concern about my information was compounded by you revealing my real name on a website when I signed up with a pseudonym. Your response was, and I quote, "no one gives a shit who you are." I think it's time Sun City learns the truth about current leadership.
JP
Well Anon, this is not all the info I have. Most of it makes me want to vomit. Join my group on ND.
JP
"Last but not least, not all foundations are created equal. I choke every time a commenter tells us how well run their former employer ran their foundation. The 990's are online for both. You can look for yourself, but there's kind of a difference between one where the top three officers take a million dollars in compensation (wages and expenses) a year to one that has never, NEVER, had a paid employee. It's like comparing a Yugo to a 947. There is none."
There is one HUGE distinction Bill! The 947 owner actually distributes the funds so the people benefit even if he/she makes money. The Yugo owner puts the money in the trunk and says "let's party".
I'll take Door Number 2 Monty!!
JP
Disparaging comments are never okay anon. Does stuff get said, yup, doesn't make it right, nor does it mean the work they do has no value. Ultimately we can all do better. In a perfect world, everyone would be, well, perfect...none of us are.
The Sun City Foundation had enormous potential. I've read the letter of application to the IRS and their written response. I've read their Documents and for whatever reason they elected to stay small and simply try and pay rec fees (lot assessments). It could have been so much more.
I find the never ending attacks on anything RCSC related, interesting/curious. I also know the vast majority of folks living in Sun City love it here. Pretending the entire community hates it is the game of a couple of angry folks who have their own agenda.
I spent 15 years being critical of direction. I never once hated Sun City. I never screamed and wailed about moving while having temper tantrums and twisting words to help make others hate the community we love.
The entire point of creating the Sun City Advocates (at least for me), was to elect a majority of the board who were willing to listen to the members. Once that was done, i was contented to let others do the heavy lifting.
Unfortunately there's some in the community that feel compelled to keep throwing my name out there as some sort of red flag. Whatever works i guess. From my perspective there is no better place to retire to for men and women of average means than Sun City. It's always been the way, hopefully it always will be.
The only one wailing with flailing arms while throwing a tantrum was you at the last meeting. But you did get those applause!
No tantrum bro, just passion for a community i love.
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It's the beauty and ugliness of the internet and social media in general; isn't it anon. It's why i most often elected to use my own name. I'll take ownership of what i say and write. I also understand why others prefer not to.
The bigger problem comes when it becomes a dumping ground for half-truths or untruths. People read and just like the commercial's famous line: "it's on the internet so it must be true," we all get caught up in it.
Then it gets worse as the nasty comments and infighting turns to rage and hatred. It's the new normal in this country. We even see it here on the smattering of local sites. Nothing wrong with disagreements, and even respectful arguing. There's seldom one right answer, there's a boatload of opinions.
One doesn't have to look far as the question of the Sun City Foundation and what they do has spiraled beyond reality. One charge was made they hadn't filed their 990's and was a violation of their legal obligations. It was nonsense and was quickly pointed out. Oops.
Now we can see the claims they don't spend any of the money and are hoarding it along with gift cards secured in a safe. Obviously the poster doesn't know how to read a 990. It spells out exactly how much was given back to help members each year.
As i said earlier, foundations typically try and spend only their earnings off of their assets. It's a safe way to insure they stay around. The Sun City Foundation's 2023 990 has not been posted and the good news is apparently they got a sizeable bequest which should show up in that reporting.
The good news is that will make their ability to help more members a reality. Sounds like they doubled their assets (200k to 400k). The question now is how to get the word out there and insure those that truly need the help, get it.
Let me close by reinforcing the nasty comments made at a Foundation meeting were out of line. They were said in the privacy of a room and where those attending weren't expected to see it posted on the internet. I know i was called out for somehow defending the callous comments, which obviously wasn't the case.
Beyond that, there's not been one remark about the criteria used in qualifying. Curious, in that some have whined about the paperwork that needs to be filled out is too much. The option is; should it just be available to everyone who says they need/want it?
It's the beauty and ugliness of the internet and social media in general; isn't it anon. It's why i most often elected to use my own name. I'll take ownership of what i say and write. I also understand why others prefer not to.
Holy Crap! Well in all fairness you may understand it but you only allow certain people to keep their anonymity!! Of all the hypocritical things you say this takes the cake! I am laughing out loud!!!
JP
And the whining simply never stops.
For the countless numbers who love Sun City and all it offers, celebrate the joy we have found in a more sane and satisfying way of life. For those who are miserable; well that's clearly your option, your choice and you own it.
"Last time JP, i have no interest in trading barbs with you. Citing your relatives who have listened to you rip Sun City and how much you hate it as the sounding board for our future is ludicrous on it's face."
This is cute. You ASSume everything. Have you heard me "rip" Sun City to my family? My niece lived here for 18 months taking care of her mother, She got her info first hand. If I had a nickle for every time you said "last time JP" I could afford to move. In true NPD you just can't walk away.
I never said I "hate" Sun City, I have said I don't like what it has become. You just spew stuff about and to people with no regard for the truth. Everything gets lost in the "thousands of words" you have written. Judging from member comments after yesterday's exchange meeting most feel the same as I do.
Just came here to get some responses from SCF post. Members need to know. Just curious, IF you get to heaven are you going to ask God to get out of your chair?
Fondly,
JP
Oops. Made a mistake. Not thousands, millions.
Bill Pearson said...
After writing more than a million words regarding Sun City,
Sun City's history has taught us all one incredibly valuable lesson and that is in spite of all the turmoil, challenges and interpersonal differences over the years, we always come out from them in a better place. Powerful and compelling for sure.
It is exactly why the Del Webb Museum is so critical to this communities future. The footprints that brought us through it all still are there. It's foolishness not to pay attention and use them as guidelines.
The other aspect of the museum's collections are a constant reminder that those who bought here, loved it. The vast majority still do.
As i read though Ben Roloff's amazing collection of early newspaper article, there's been a small minority of whiners and complainers. History contains another interesting footnote: That minority has never mattered, the outcomes have always been set by those who love their community and actively work to make a difference.
Powerful and indeed compelling!
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