My apologies, I know it has been weeks since writing but with the weather finally breaking and visitors in town, time was at a premium. However, there has been no shortage of RCSC-related happenings. We won't belabor any of them, because like us, we know being outside when it is 70 degrees is the exact reason many of us live here. We will try and break this into snippets of all of the changes so you can pick and choose the things that are of interest to you.
Mountain View Put On Hold; First Reading.
Easily the most controversial board action in a very long time was at the Feb, 23 board meeting when the Mountain View project was recommended to be put on hold (first reading). If you haven't watched it yet, you can catch it here. There was also a flurry of motions made pertaining to a more transparent and easier-to-read financial process. Lots of good back and forth and for the most part, should they pass at the next reading, many of us will have a more clear understanding of where we are financially at year's end.
While many have become outspoken critics of the board's action to slow the roll on the Mountain View remodel, the reality of spending 40 million dollars over the next 8 years is one that needs both discussion and an honest evaluation. We know theater lovers are upset, but this massive expenditure was never well thought out; especially given the recent drop in home sales over the past couple of months. The RCSC has an asset valuation of roughly 140 million dollars and the idea we would spend that large a percentage (30%) for a single project with such a narrow community impact is illogical.
With our opinion out of the way, this decision is bigger than the board members, bigger than just those living in and around Mountain View, and is one that deserves proper airing across the community. Kudos to the board for asking for input and for understanding their obligations as fiduciaries of our assets. This was how the process is supposed to work. Anyone with thoughts (for or against) on this should make every effort to be at the next Exchange meeting. It starts at 9 am and is this Monday, March, 13th at the SunDial auditorium.
There's been any number of articles in the newspaper and across social media sites. It is a controversial topic, as well it should be. You can read my take on it here. And, feel free to post your thoughts on our comment page.
2 More Board Members resign.
We knew one board member resigned and the position was quickly filled by what we lovingly called a "retread." Board members felt they needed someone with a deeper historical understanding of how the board used to work. Following the last board meeting, 2 more board members resigned. They had both voted no on the suspension of the Mountain View project. Virtually all of us on the Sun City Advocates have argued the value of diverse opinions, apparently, they didn't see it that way. It's pretty obvious Dale and Allan weren't happy with being in the minority position.
There's nothing new about board members quitting, it has happened periodically over the years. 3 leaving within 2 months is out of the ordinary and normally we would just say thanks for your service and enjoy life away from the board. Unfortunately, when the last two left, they decided to defecate all over those who stayed. I have little patience for what they did. I won't share my comments here but I have a pretty blunt opinion on this thread posted on TOSC. You can read it here.
Musical Chairs For Officers.
There was quite the flap over the president and vice president stepping down as officers but staying on as board members earlier in February. We heard all kinds of rumors and rather than letting them float across social media sites and throughout the community, both John and Steve addressed their health reasons for asking to be removed as officers. It was refreshing on its face, as their campaign to run on an open and more transparent style of governance, was quickly witnessed. You can watch that at the February Exchange meeting here.
Golf Is Still A Hotbed Of Controversy.
In the link immediately above for the February Exchange meeting, there were numerous member comments about how difficult it is for Sun City golfers to get tee times. There is absolutely no question that the biggest reason for this is because of the full-play non-resident passes. Those passes when coupled with a small group (30 or more players who purchase the $2 override on the lottery) are creating a nightmare scenario. It's simply time for this board and management to put a moratorium on all non-resident full-play pass sales. We have and are still calling for a committee of Sun City golfers (the golf advisory committee is a great starting point) to evaluate our entire golf structure. The players know it far better than most of us non-players ever will. Let the community of golfers decide what works and what is fair and reasonable.
Random Thoughts.
There's so much going on and so many hot-button issues, we would be remiss not to point out a couple of things. While many of us were critical of the ASU survey, we know the number of responses was wonderful. We also have firmly supported the idea the follow-up Focus Groups have taken on greater importance. Thanks to all those who offered to help. On another note, kudos to the board for soliciting applications across the membership to fill the two board openings. That's the right way to go about filling positions. "Retreads" are easy but do little to grow the circle.
Finally, a quick reminder: the Sun Bowl show this Sunday night, March 12 has been moved to SunDial auditorium. The doors open at 3 pm with showtime at 4 pm (don't bring your lawn chairs). I suspect the move was due to the Italian Festival this weekend at that venue and the inability of staff to be in two places at one time. I would hope those remaining shows this spring are outdoors. The first two were moved and we all know how much RCSC members love filling the Sun Bowl and enjoying that wonderful venue under the stars.
As always; just one man's opinion.
Bill Pearson, Sun City Advocate Panel Member and Sun City Historian.
PS. Don't forget the Monday morning Exchange at 9 am SunDial auditorium.
209 comments:
1 – 200 of 209 Newer› Newest»Do we have a signed contract for the MV project?
It's a good question to ask the board tomorrow; obviously i would have no idea what what contracts were or weren't signed or what was in them. Sadly that kind of information hasn't been made readily available to the full board in the past. Years back it was deemed the duty of the 3 member "bid commission" for their review and approval.
Personally i think we can do better. Large contracts should be the purview of the full board, or at the very least, those interested in seeing them. Further, i would take solace in the fact the maker of the motion is an attorney who understands the ramifications of negating a contract without cause.
Now that you mention it, i would hope the new board over time review this entire "preferred bidder status. We've watched for years as one contractor consistently underbid a project, always get the bid and then tell the board he needed adjustments because he found stuff he never anticipated. By the way, he always got both the bids and increases.
I find it odd that one architect gets every job for the RCSC. We long ago found competition for bids and work on the size and scope Sun City does should professionals fighting over the jobs, but that never seems to be the case.
BY all means, ask away tomorrow.
I forgot that he was also an attorney. That's reassuring. We he speaks I lean in.
I cannot be there. I hope someone does ask the question. Somewhat hard to keep up these days while working even part time. Life keeps happening. Thank you for the insight.
Anon, I did not view exchange yet - so don't know if this was addressed but my understanding: Board approved 1.8 million to be spent on detailed plans, and Mr Wyprud (sp?) said they were working and RCSC has been paying by month. I am not aware of the existence of a 'contract' that would require us to pay for work not done. And can I just add that if former Director Lenefsky believed there was even a chance of breach of contract he was obligated to investigate and inform. So that from the moment he saw that until the moment he resigned he was essential in breach of his ethical duties as a Director. For him to then criticize others is hypocritical at best. Very disappointed in him.
Well said Joe. Leaving with this kind of shitstain on yourself was sad to witness. I guess they got their "revenge" as it made the Independent for the whole world to read. I wonder if Rusty called them, or they contacted him?
Through all the board meetings and exchanges, we hear very little to nothing about technology in Sun City. Nothing about integrating new technology into Grand or Mountain View, or any of our other older Sun City Venues. I know they want to tell you that integrating new technology into older buildings is un-doable. That's total baloney. Integrating new technology in older buildings can and has been done all over the country.
We are so far behind that I doubt we will ever catch up in my lifetime.
No security cameras. No auto sign in to any venue with a smart phone. Constant CORRECTIONS to Email blasts, daily, weekly, monthly spreadsheet data on golf course use, no validation of rec cards, too many pencil and paper logs. Pencil and paper was the word processor of 30 years ago. No updates from the current IT manager. Why isn't he at the board meetings and Exchanges to answer questions? Kat Fimmel has been a complete disappointment along with Dale who constantly harped on DATA collection. How much data collection is done electronically in Sun City? How much money is allocated for technology in 2023 and beyond? Anybody got a clue? Is it 100,000 , 500,000. In either case that is a drop in the bucket. That amount of money will never bring us into the 21st century technology wise.
Technology has fallen way behind here and there is no real push to bring technology into the 21st century. What we have here for technology is what I worked with 30 years ago.
Just an opinion.
Amen to that anon.
Anon...All very valid! The last time a comment was made by the GM about technology spending was 500K last year and 500K in 2023 budget. However, there was no mention of how much was spent for just the build/move for the new server room. My humble opinion...like so many other things: not enough resources applied to a significant problem that is holding us back.
Another example of poor planning and wasting time and money: the President of the softball club asked about lighting for the curremt renovation plans as they will definitely need lights next year due to club growth. Response: No, not in the current plans. It was like, WHAT? Why is that not part of the plan NOW? Response...well, if we do it now we'll slow the project down. So, lights have been a known fact. Nobody plans ahead. So. They will do it later when they have to tear up what they've just done, or maybe, say we can't do it now ( or for x years) because your club just received X million dollars in upgrades and some other Club is in line. I think the staff tries, but there's a missing link. Not enough staff, not the right planning/oversight or lack of appropriate budgeting or what? This scenario plays out too often.
I agree that there seems to be a link or two missing. Regarding the softball project, it seemed to me that the meeting with the club representatives should have been already scheduled prior to the Exchange. Hooray for the club rep for asking the questions and getting the meeting scheduled. Who knows how long it would have been delayed if he hadn't. (BTW I am not affiliated in anyway with the softball club.)
Why does the PAC have to be in Sun City?
There are many sites within 10 miles of Sun City that more than likely can accommodate a 1000 set PAC.
The biggest objection I see to that is “I don’t want to drive more than a mile to see a sow.
Think about this. I believe that almost all residents drive further than that to see a doctor, do shopping at some mall, go to dinner with friends or family, and to attend events outside of the walls of Sun City.
Personally I spend more time outside of Sun City than I do inside.
Purchase land within 10 miles of Sun City and build a PAC with ample parking.
Sun City has NO space for a well equipped PAC for 1000 seats and parking. Building a PAC for 400 seats is nonsense.
Of course there will be those that say “I can’t drive that far, I don’t want to drive that far”.
The answer to that would be RCSC sponsored shuttle service to PAC events for those without transportation.
Another suggestion to Anon’s post above would be to provide Live Streaming of any PAC event for any and all Sun City residents.
It’s called Technology. Where is it in Sun City? Non-existent.
Will there ever be 21st century technology in Sun City? Probably not.
The board is supposed to direct the management, but it appears the management is directing the board.
As for golf and all the complaints that small groups with non members pay 2.00 dollars for preferential treatment
On some sort of lottery for T times.
Non member players do NOT pay into the PIF fund. They do NOT pay a yearly assessment fee for the use of RCSC facilities.
Why are they given preferential treatment? How much annually do they actually contribute to RCSC maintenance of golf courses?
Is it a million, or less than 500,000? We should not be allowing non-member outside play to minutely subsidize Sun City golf course maintenance. How much of outside play revenue was used to pay for the new East/West maintenance prison?
Where are the electronic stats and reports on usage by non-member outside golfers.
Folks, they are using our courses simply because they are the cheapest prices for full play.
We have to look at charging members more for use of golf facilities. Inflation is at its highest in years yet we don’t adjust costs to golfers in Sun City accordingly.
Why is it that microphones are passed from board member to board member?
I brought this up in another thread and I believe I even emailed board members on the failure of current microphones at all meetings.
Look back to,previous meetings and you will see someone replacing microphones that are failing tomwork.
The response I received was that they were looking at replacements, That was at least by months ago. It does not take 6 months to research and test new microphones.
I’ll guarantee that anything golf related does not take 6 months to research.
The mic issue is really odd. Batteries go bad, but at the rate these die, it's strange. I suspect it's an older system. All of which makes me question the above comment about whether rebuilding anything new would ever work given the sorry state of our technology.
It was the reason in 2019 we (the long range planning committee) recommended a total review of the RCSC's technology. We knew we were in bad shape, but until we saw the presentation in 2022, we didn't realize how bad. Pathetic would be high praise of where we were/are.
Sadly, no one seemed to care over all those years (2010-2022). While it's easy to blame management, board's had an obligation to push them. Unfortunately, the GM created an atmosphere where pushing back wasn't in the cards.
There never was a calling for a 1000 person theatre. If memory serves me correct it was 400 seats, which was what was asked for
Actually the original site DEVCO was going to build on (99th and Bell Road), after nearly a year of discussions with potential group users (17), arrived at an 1800 seating capacity number. For better or worse, the Bell rec center ran 5 million dollars over budget and the theater was scrapped and the land developed as a shopping center.
A 400 seat capacity theater limits the utilization and maybe is the best possible solution. Not in my wheelhouse, but i understand one of the soon to be appointed board members has some expertise in that area. I really don't care where the theater goes, what i care about is that we not strap or tie the community's future to golf and a single rec center remodel with limited reach.
Bill, just read the thread on the potential group home on View point lake. I take issue with SCHOA and their lackadaisical approach to this problem. If their attorney doesn’t have a strategy in place already, they should be fired.
The real question is not the permit to run a group home, it’s the zoning. Think crack about ten years or so on the school that wanted to operate 8n the strip mall at 107th and Peoria. There was all that breast beating mostly led by the not too smart Anne Stewart regarding a permit to operate a school. I knew right away that it was really zoning. Now before you start that I am the smartest man and have all the answers BS, I just happen to know that before you apply for a permit, you must have the proper zoning. That is what ultimately sunk that school.
I will get that the residence in question is zoned for residential property. A group home would in fact be a business as there would be an exchange of money involved, consequently violat8ng the zoning. QED, you must have the proper zoning before you can apply for a permit to operate a group home. If you wish to fight a two front war at the same time, fight zoning with the county who has jurisdiction while fighting the permitting request with the proper county department. If you don’t believe me, ask John Fast as he apparently has a strong background in property and tax shelters.
How did I acquire this knowledge? I watched zoning and permitting wars in Chicago for over forty years. Some things are just the same verywhere.
No argument on any thing you said Dave above Dave. SCHOA needs to get their ass in gear and sort this out.
Can't make the meeting today. But.. I'm concerned about the board being able to attend via phone or zoom. This suggestion appears arrogant and selfish. If anything, home owners should be able to attend via zoom and or other methods. This would give us, the home owners, the attendance numbers to be able to vote at meetings. Board members should not be allowed to have any special privileges not afforded the home owners.
There are two RVs that have been parked on the street at Cameo and 108th Drive for several weeks. The neighbors have tried calling SCHOA, Sun City Posse, and the sheriff's office. All have told them they can't do anything. One of the RV's is a fifth wheeler that has no license plate. These vehicles are connected in some way to a twin home that everyone in the neighborhood considers "the drug house". Does anyone know what can be done? We walked by this evening and there was a hypodermic needle near the driveway.
ORDINANCE NO. P-5
MARICOPA COUNTY ORDINANCE
THE MARICOPA COUNTY RESIDENTIAL PARKING ORDINANCE #8901
Section 102. Purpose
The purpose of this Ordinance is to promote the public health, safety and welfare in residential areas by prohibiting the parking of large trucks, trailers, recreational vehicles and buses on residential streets, thereby reducing traffic hazards and promoting property values, aesthetics and overall quality of life in residential areas. This Ordinance is adopted pursuant to the authority conferred in Arizona Revised Statutes Section 11-251.05.
Full ordinance:
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P-05---Residential-Parking-Ordinance-PDF
PDF Document · 15 KB
I drove past there early this morning. It looks bad because it is bad. If there is a county ordinance, the county should be doing something about it.
There was a drug arrest on Cameo recently according to Crime Map Nexis Lexis.
I'm sure the sheriff's department is aware and on it. They do a lot of things behind the scenes that we are not aware of. We have an excellent District 3 Commander who cares about Sun City.
This is THE issue to come together around people!!!
Anon, while what you have said there is the question of due process, I.e., the procedures to remove these vehicles. I presume from your post that at least one of the vehicles has a license plate. Since this located on county property (the street) the sheriff would have to issue a ticket or tickets for violation of the parking regulation. At some point the licensed owner would be contacted by registered mail to essentially move or lose it with a narrow time from. If not moved or no response the sheriff’s office would have the right to tow it away. It would be subsequently sold at a Sheriff’s sale or if a beater as we called them in Chicago, it would be towed to a junk yard. The other with no plate could be declared an obstruction on a public way (county street) and towed away for sale or being junked. At the moment I see this as a problem starting with the sheriff with possibly a consultation with the county attorney. If on private property I see this as a problem for the county attorney. This is generally how it worked in Chicago, but I find certain situations from a legal standpoint operate the same everywhere. Certainly what you have described warrants immediate action. Calling Clint Hickman’s office would not hurt either.
Bill, as Emily pointed out, schlep is essentially a verb and really does fit as a noun. Schubert is good but I would also add schnook, putz or newish which is not germane to this but is in a cursory manner. This is the result of a long term relationship with a very nice Jewish girl a long time ago. Don get me started on being the youngest male at a Seder when there were three other males I was 33. On vey!
The RVs are gone.
So what are the requirements for new structures not attached to existing homes?
In the past few days I’ve see at least two structures being built that are not attached to existing homes.
1 on W pleasant valley rd
1, maybe 2 on Cameo Drive.
Does SCHOA care? Does anyone care?
There is nothing illegal about building a garage on the property as long as it meets the set-back requirements in the CC&R's. I know it's odd not allowing sheds but detached garages being okay, but garages were never a thing when the CC&R's were written and even when they were updated and passed in 1998/1999.
Bill, The changes to the CC&Rs in 1998/99 are illegal as they were written and added by the clerical.secretary Carol Stoddard. They were later voted on by rhe SCHOA Board which still made them illegal as the proceeds violated the Articles of Incorporation. The Articles clearly state that any changes must be voted on by the homeowners. They larger found this was illegal and snuck in a section where the Board can vote on changes which is also illegal.
SCHOA compliance officer once sent me a letter saying I parked on my landscaping (it was less than 20 minutes as Di just had surgery and it was the closest distance to the front door.p) in violation. The relevant section had been changed by the Board voting. I responded saying the cited section was illegal under the color of the Articles. Never heard from them again.
The changes made in 1998/1999 were in fact voted on by the residents Dave. When we were elected to the board in 2006 the cards were still in the office with each of the 50 plus units and how much over 50% they were. The board resolutions drafted in 2011 were not voted on by the members and that's why they were never able to enforce them.
Bill, you are correct and I admit I made a mistake regarding the years. I should have typed that changes were made illegally in 2009 by the clerical secretary and eventually voted on by the Board of Directors illegally. I was obviously thinking of when we purchased our property in 1998. My apologies.
I do feel frustrated that this is the only site I can post regarding posts I read on TOSC which is far away from the source. I have wanted to comment on whiny golfers, whiny Players, whiny yet pragmatic pickleball players, Car club coming with another million dollar shopping list, inane ideas to keep assessments low such as a de facto tag day for RCSC or pledging part of my estate to RCSC like it’s a PBS station. Then there iare Directors pulling or tabling motions with no explanation which kind of defeats the transparency they promised and I expected. The archery range was canned because of a Board policy that prohibits dangerous weapons on RCSC property. Unfortunately this sort of ended my Richard the First Crossbow club before it started. These are few of the items I wanted to bring up. You know me to be a serious and honest person who knows what he is talking about (OK I do make some snarky comparisons), I don’t run with the herd and do not suffer fools lightly. I feel bad that I missed last Monday’s exchange as I signed up for jury duty even though I could have claimed an exemption because of my age. My parents taught me at a young age that jury duty was a civic responsibility.
That should do for now and we really do not know what Mountain View will cost until the final drawings are completed and the architect puts their estimate on it. Anything else is just numbers with nothing backing it up.
I won't respond to all of your points Dave but having read the IRS letter of application as a 401 qualified organization back in the mid 80's, they were actually set up to receive donations (bequests) to be used for large funding projects. Think before PIF and it is easier to grasp.
Sadly we never took advantage of the billions of dollars within the community that could have been donated to update Sun City as our amenities aged. Oddly, when Helen T donated money via the Foundation for lawn bowling improvements, some members of the foundation were angered by it.
Potential is such an interesting word. We've had tons of it...the real question is; have we lived up to it?
Bill, to quote from Bill and Ted,s Excellent Adventure, there are strange things afoot at the Circle K tonight. It seems the thread on next Thursday,s Board meeting has been mysteriously been taken down. Even stranger is that it was taken down after my discussion with John Fast Friday before the Budget and Finance meeting which I have a short note to follow on that.
It seems the motions on the by laws change look very familiar to the suggested changes presented by the by law committee last year. Although I have not seen the exact changes to each by law I will venture a guess that the language is close enough to constitute plagiarism. The real change I have seen is the lowering of the quorum to 500 which I vehemently opposed. I told John that a small group of people with proxies could institute changes that affect 39,000 residents with crazy ideas. John told me there are guardrails in place. If you remember last December Karen and I had a heated discussion over this which revealed to me that she is an obtuse chatterbox. By the way, last Friday management did every necessary for Karen to attend the Budget and Finance meeting via Zoom from the Josef Goebbels Memorial park in the Vaterland but she never showed with no explanation and you wonder why I spoke out about the remote participation by Board Directors. Here is your proof.
I see what is happening and the Board revealed their plans last month when they removed certain policies from the by laws just like.the committee did. I see this as the drip drip drip to change the by laws using our efforts over the balance of this year and probably into the next. Fortunately I see the long game on this I know what will be changed and why. I will reveal this as we approach the appropriate time and they will hurt the future of Sun City.
So, belated thanks on behalf of the by laws committee for our member driven work that was very impressive.
Deus illud volt.
Dave,
I don't think our bylaws committee has a copyright on what we presented to the Board last fall. Your accusation of "plagiarism" seems a bit extreme. I know that I certainly expected that the Board would look at each piece of our document and make any adjustments they felt were needed. This seems like good governance. I am glad they didn't just dispose of our hard work. If this is their long game, I am all for it!
Have a nice summer!
Janet
Janet, I remember that idiot Tom Marone saying that a previous motion defeated could not be resurrected. This is an end around as they say in football using our work claiming it is theirs. Copyright has nothing to do with this, it is outright using someone else’s work and passing it off as yours,. It is called plagiarism. By the way I am not impressed by this Board as they haven’t done shit this year other than talk and more committees as proof of doing something.
You have been siding with these bozos since you lied about consensus when the by laws were presented. I have always said that you should never screw with an surety underwriter as we have very long memories.
Holy shit Bill, the deleted motion magically appears again after my post!!!! How does this happens? Has David Copperfield taken up residence in Sun City? Maybe it’s because Christine caught you with your metaphorical hand in the cookie jar? Maybe it was my old stoner friend from the hood with his time/space warp that came into play. Weird times indeed.
Dave,
I have come to expect name-calling from you when someone has an opinion different than yours. You did so five times in your posts on May 21st & 22nd:
Tom Marone - idiot
Karen McAdam - obtuse chatterbox
Janet Curry (me) - liar
Board - bozos
Bill Pearson - caught with his.....hand in the cookie jar
I could hurl back some names to you, but I won't because I consider name-calling immature.
Your reference to me lying "about consensus when the bylaws were presented" is puzzling to me. It was very clear from the very beginning of our committee's work that each of us would be able to state our opinions if they differed from the final document. Director Lenefsky made that very clear at the beginning of the meeting where we presented the bylaws. (Check the video if you have any doubts.) Somewhere along the line, some of you on the committee decided to do differently and present it as total consensus. Perhaps that was determined at one of the committee meetings I was not invited to attend. Regardless, I can assure you that I NEVER lie. There may be times that I am mistaken or there is a misunderstanding, but tell a lie....no way! There is simply no reason to do that in my opinion whether you are an educator, police officer, surety underwriter or any other worker.
You are correct that I "side with" the current Board on most of the direction they are taking. I voted for most of them. When I applied to be on the bylaws committee, I basically knew no one except a few neighbors and some ladies I played golf with on league day. However, as I attended or watched the Board meetings, read the Independent and some blogs about Sun City, I was able to form my own opinions about the issues and the individuals who were running for the Board. I can say I am comfortable with my choices and I think they are doing a fine job.
Janet Curry
Not to be overtly blunt Dave, but what the flock are you talking about? What hand in what cookie jar? What disappearing motions? You truly need some professional help brother.
Dave....I'm going to be blunt, because that's your style. Your continuous name calling and condescending behavior really diminishes any credibility you may have in any of the discussions on this forum, at public meetings, or in other small group situations. You may have a lot of experience, insight, and some good ideas. But it is becoming increasingly difficult to seriously entertain any of your ideas because of your demeanor. Maybe it's time for a bit of self-reflection.
Bill, how did that thread disappear which you started after Friday and then reappear on Sunday? How are threads taken down, what’s the process? How does did reappear on Sunday almost verbatim under another person who posts? I find it strange and have never seen this on TOSC before, so you tell me. Don’t gaslight me because I have a witness. I don’t need professional help bro, I want answers.
Janet, those were not insults, those were opinions based on extensive observations. Since there will four openings on the Board next year I will venture a guess that the SCA will have at least four candidates running who will probably win. Great that would give them 7 sitting Board members and when all this fake transparency blows up on them, they own it. BTW, Karen was suppose to be on a Zoom call for the Budget and Finance meeting last Friday after management set up the call, she never showed. No explanation. Couldn’t make Board meeting today because she and hubby were jetting back from the Vaterland. She does this three or four times a year. Explain to me why is she on the Board other than the revenge tour from last year. You wonder why I didn’t like the director Zoom thing. Exhibit 1. It will only get worse from here.
As for the Board being bozos, watch today’ s meeting as Jean Totten is basically clueless and the Board really needs a certified parliamentarian and Tom Marone ain’t it. At times it was The Keystone Cops meet The Three Stooges.
As for the consensus item, Allen said at the beginning that when the committee presents our work, on each article he wanted to present that the vote was unanimous, a consensus or if neither of the two and a split, in the alternative, a side explanation by person(s) why they voted the way they did. We had one final article during our last session that there was a split. We talked it out and Allen said “do we have a consensus?” He polled individually and we came to a consensus. At the December meeting you specifically said that there was not on that article which was not true. Stella, Carmel and Allen came up to me and asked why did you say that. I have witnesses backing my point, what do you have for witnesses? This is the Big Time and those committee members have better resumes than yours. Have a positive day.
What thread are you talking about Dave? I honest to God have no idea what you are talking about. I have no admin privileges on IOSC and cannot take anything down. Be specific and perhaps i can take a wild ass stab at answering your questions or challenges.
This board has done more in the first 5 months to restore Sun City to its roots and core values than anyone since 2006. It's that simple Dave. Your mindless prattling about every motion are beyond comprehension because everyone everywhere is just out to destroy Sun City...a community 98% of us love.
Do you even know what the Articles say about a members right to vote? Do you know specifically what they have the right to make motions and vote on at those meetings? It would be truly helpful if you had some idea about that before you go on mindless rants about some unknown group destroying Sun City and one of their membership meetings.
“Captain Queeg: Ahh, but the strawberries! That's - that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with - geometric logic - that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist! And I'd have PRODUCED that key if they hadn't've pulled the Caine out of action! I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers -
[breaks off in horror, becomes hesitant]
Captain Queeg: Umm... naturally, I can only cover these things roughly, from - memory... but if I've left anything out... why, you just ask me - specific questions and I'll be - perfectly happy to answer them... one by one.“
Captain Queeg
The Caine Mutiny (1954)
Bill, I am going to let it drop as the amount of time you post on TOSC and not notice this, I cannot argue.
But time for truth and numbers don’t lie. But first the firing of Bill Cook by the Board is unexplainable and they will hide behind the confidentiality thing just like the Brehm and McAdam thing. I will say that Bill has more knowledge than the Board combined. I have spoke to both him and Kevin and found them forthcoming and produced any document I requested. Now the interesting thing is how the job search is done. I have a feel that some Board members have favorites waiting the wings for Bill’s position. Since the entire process will be behind closed doors and the members will not have the transparency certain people clamor for. The bottom line I believe the mutual consent on Bill as believable as the Fox/Tucker Carlson mutual consent.
Tom Marone, stay away from areas where you are clueless like home transfer during the first quarter. Now if you had attended the Budget and Finance meeting last Friday unlike Karen McAdam, you would have learned that the number for the first quarter was 559. While lower than previous years the biggest factor was interest rates. Prior years rates were almost close to free money which is what tanked SVB and two others. Low mortgage rate backed securities versus rising rates =bank runs.
Regarding golf, Bill Pearson’s favorite whipping boy. Since Bill has learned a new word subsidize. Well the numbers are in and the total number of outside passes are, drumroll please, 147. That is 83 with cart and 64 without. This is opposed to over 2100 resident passes that resident all courses with no fee of 485 and resident all courses surcharge of 1617. Sort of puts a whole new light on things.
While on the subject of subsidies, Bill has moved onto include per property versus per person. Since he was on the Board when this was instituted he knows the reason why, guaranteed revenue flow. Currently it takes about $1.6M monthly to keep the lights on as they say. That comes to over $19M per year and it will not get any cheaper. Consequently, if the number of members fluctuate every year, how can you budget accurately. His argument that per property is subsidizing me because, for the record I was grandfathered in on per person is ridiculous. Since I do not use the rec facilities, golf, go to shows or other entertainment I actually am “subsidizing others. The only thing I could be accused of is sitting in the Board room for either the Budget and Finance committee and the Insurance committee meetings. Absurd.
Finally we come to yesterday’s Board meeting, specifically the by law changes the Board plagiarized from the last year’s committee. Motion number 1 was actually tabled because of potential abuse via proxies for the quorum. Personally I find 500 member threshold too low especially with proxies. Motion number 2 was passed with amendments that clarified language. Motion number 3 was defeated by a vote of 4 for, 4 against and 1 abstention. This concerned proxies and voting procedures.. one of the sticking points using Robert’s Rules of Order. Since the Board Parliamentarian quit we have no certified Parliamentarian so whole arbitrates issues? Someone in the audience whole has a book but totally unfamiliar with changes, interpretations, etc.? Not exactly fair. Then came proxies and potential abuse. Since there are two types of proxies, general which says you are there via the holder but sign your away voting rights and specific proxies which the holder acts in your stead but specific issues are listed in the proxy which has either yes, no or abstain. The proxy hold must vote according to your wishes as opposed voting the holders wishes. The proxies used for the quorum are general and if voting comes up during the meeting, the holder can vote anyway they want. Dangerous.
Linda, you may not like my style but I speak the truth until proven otherwise. Of the names you took issue name one thing I said that is not true and I will include the above.
Have fun storming the castle.
Actually Dave you and the word truth aren't even residing on the same planet. You just say shit. For example: The per property versus per person was passed in 2003 when they grandfathered single home owners (like yourself) from having to pay the full per lot assessment. I guess the good news for you is you write and say everything with such conviction, it becomes the truth in your minds eye. Realistically, you aren't even close to being right.
That's just for starters bro. BTW: Plagiarism, REALLY? I made the bylaw change motion at the 2021 annual membership meeting. It was properly and timely submitted in accordance with our documents. Further. the rights guaranteed under our Articles of Incorporation gave us the right to vote on them (which the board denied) and when a conflict existed between the membership and the board, "the action of the Member's shall prevail." (Article 8, section 4).
How's that for the truth?
Dave. There is no truth in name calling. Nada, zero, zip. Calling someone an idiot is beyond the pale, describing a female board member an obtuse chatterbox is sexist and demeaning, calling a former committee member a liar is defaming, calling the entire Board bozos because they aren't following your playback is just childish and again, makes you the one that lacks credibility. In my opinion, your behavior doesn't meet the civility test. And, your constant criticism of Director McAdam is uncalled for. She is prepared, knowledgeable and works on behalf of members to get answers and seek solutions. All I'm going to say as it pertains to Bill Pearson: to quote Taylor Swift, "let it go."
More "truth" from Dave here gang. For over a year now we knew the number of outside passes; always hovering between 140-150. Trying to dull the impact of them with passes purchased by members is simply useless information. Here's why; Sun City was built by the members, for the members. Comparing inside passes to outside passes is like comparing apples to elephants. It simply does not compute.
As far as "subsidizes." it's an interesting discussion in that Dave, Bill Cook and Kevin McCurdy helped me get my head around the costs. Dave has repeatedly told us the 990's were "garbage." But were they? The 990 forms include depreciation for both PIF projects for golf and depreciated capital investments for golf items purchased (think golf cars and equipment). The reason the 990's showed a massive difference each year between revenue (roughly 7 million dollars) and expenses (roughly 9 million dollars pre-pandemic) was it included those expenses paid by the RCSC for golf.
Realistically, it was in fact money they spent for golf (from one pot or another) and they simply wrote it off as a depreciated cost. Nothing wrong with that (in fact it is what they should be doing), but it's still money they put into golf courses, outbuildings and equipment. By the time the 5th water management plan conversion to desert landscaping) is complete it will be in the 100 million dollar range.
All of which is curious when you consider Dave minimizing the outside full play passes. We already know he has proclaimed himself a world class economist, so one has to ponder how good he actually is with numbers. Case in point: A non-resident who comes and plays 100 rounds of golf over the course of a year would pay $14 to rent a golf car. 100 times $14.00 comes in at the tidy sum of $1,400. That non-resident buys the $3,250. ($500 with golf car included) is paying $5 per round for the car (not $14). But wait, it gets worse: His non golf car rental buddy ($2,750) slips into the golf car after the first tee and then quietly slips him half the $250 yearly fee and they get as even cheaper per round cost.
To be perfectly clear, we haven't even began to dissect the actual cost per round for those non-residents who have contributed zilch, zero, nada to the 100 million dollar subsidy the rest of us living here will have paid. Let that sink in for a minute or three.
That's exactly why this argument made by the GM was folly. Non-residents should never, NEVER, have better access to prime time tee times nor should they ever, EVER, step on one of our courses cheaper than what members pay. It was pure crap when they made the argument 15 months ago and it is still pure crap as we struggle to fix the ongoing mess.
We'll come back and have some more fun with "truth's from Dave" later.
Anyone care to take a WAG on how much it cost us to kick the GM to the curb?
Dave, If you were as smart as you think you are you should have known that the RCSC has 2 proxy forms, one for general and one for specific motions only.
Come on Tom, stop trying to confuse him with facts. His truth is much easier for him to digest. Sadly, for the rest of us we are left guessing as to what he means or even what he is trying to say.
It appears that Dave has no faith in his fellow man that they will do the right thing when holding a proxy vote for a specific motion?
I guess we can't all be as sanctimonious as Dave.
Tom, what forms were used at the last member meeting general or specific?
If you ever have time in the future are you willing to talk financial statements, foreign policy, domestic policy, micro and macro economics, facism versus democracy. I promise to be civil. This offer is based on your comments on talk of Sun City and The Lone cactus. Answer any time as I look forward to an intellectual exchange.
Tom, it’s not a lack of faith in my fellow man, it’s a question a small group of members with a questionable agenda using general proxies to impose their will on the community. Tell me that this scenario couldn’t take place?
As for Bill Cook’s resume, it appears many posters on TOSC are unfamiliar with executive search. His resume in my opinion is impressive. Worked his way up from an entry position to being recruited for position in Australia and internal promotions. The being recruited to work for the largest cell phone provider in Europe with internal promotions. Then using that knowledge to be hired as Director of finance for RCSC and the General Manager. Anybody in SCA can match that? Probably not.
Personal note, I was recruited several during my career to work for Fortune 500 companies by headhunters.
When I went to the corporate office to request proxy forms, Marcia Johnson would only allow me one form, either the General or Specific which was absolutely crazy and wrong.
There were to be several motions and perhaps some of those willing to give their proxy were only interested in one or two specific motions. Members collecting signatures for proxies should be armed with both forms.
And Dave, why would I want to discuss a subject with you that you apparently have spent your entire career at?
I would rather discuss the pro's and con's of chemical processing equipment and the advantages of liquid-liquid extraction over simple distillation! Get my point?
I'd also like to know how much it will cost to hire another GM.
Interesting also is the timing of the GM decision when all of the snowbirds had gone? How is this different than every other board that has come before?
Tom, I will admit that I barely survived organic chemistry in college, a rhetorical question. How does that apply to your questionable posts on The Lonely Cactus where believe a complete shutdown of the government, thereby trashing our credit rating , the economy as it then travels worldwide, but you want to protect your Social Securty and Medicare ( holy socialism Batman). A little hint of hypocrisy there dude? Try downloading the CNBC app which reveals a whole bunch of financial info to follow. News is separate window so tou don’t have to read it. An honest tip and you can check with whoever manages your invests, buy 1,2,3,6 month treasury bonds and 1 years treasury bonds. They are paying in excess of 5% interest. Look it up. The rates change daily. Look it up or ask John Fast or the finance guy on the Board or Kevin McCurdey.
Bill, a couple of things maybe you can clear up for me. You posted thst the new Banner Olive is at the NE corner of 130rd &Grand. I looked it up on Google earth and it looks like a warehouse as I didn’t see any windows. Not much on ambiance but I believe that it doubles as a food pantry also. Am I correct?
The second item is that the Board is hiring a headhunter for the the new GM. Any word from your friends who is the search firm? You commented that Sun City is internationally known. Just want to caution you that business in foreign countries, specifically Europe is done much differently than here. Just worried about a clash of cultures.Ask Karen since she seems to spend an inordinate amount of time there.
You are correct, it was an old warehouse. Originally a trucking service and much later acquired by the Boswell Hospital as a storage area. Apparently the hospital's new addition gave them space so they weren't traipsing across 103rd to pick up supplies.
It may surprise you to know I'm not part of a cabal or inner sanctum with the new board. If i were, they would be listening to my constant rants about returning to monthly work sessions. Clearly they are not. I first found out about the head hunters when i got the blast email like everyone else. As i said on TOSC, it's a great move. Unlike a couple of years back when the decision and search efforts were minimal at best.
Finally I know you are not obtuse enough to believe my comments regarding our international acclaim was to suggest we should be looking for a GM from Bulgaria. I was stating the obvious that anyone interested in the GM position will be familiar with Sun City's prestigious place from both a historical perspective and a practical one.
Bill, I am not saying that the move to a larger space with great logistical positives. My hats’ off to Banner Olive.
What do you have against Bulgaria other than they are an up and com8ng backwater of the Balkans. Bill Cook came from international experience an impressive at that. He was employed and internally promoted at Lucent Technologies in Australia, one of the world leaders in communication technology. He was then recruited by Nokia, the leading cell phone provider in Europe and probably the world. Don’t understand why he went from Sunny Australia to Finland not known for their Sunny winter weather. Must have been to experience a normal calendar. Cannot understand why he was fired, he was no matter how you look at it. Sometime we will find out as someone in the inner circle will talk and they alway do.
See you in a couple of weeks.
I did read the 990 posted on line and no accountant notes which would clarify that alleged $35 M in contract work. Luckily I have the CPA audited statement which I will digest this weekend for the real story.
I don't know if the move there was good or bad. The old saying; location, location, location has most often been spot on. This new site is obviously bigger, whether it is better really depends on whether their client base follows them across Grand Ave.
As far as the GM's work history, it is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Not trying to diminish what he accomplished; the real question was what he learned relevant to the role he played as the general manager for one of the largest non-profit community based organizations in the country?
I had high/massive hopes when he took Jan's spot he would become something wholly different from her. He wasn't and in fact, his people skills were far removed from hers. Numbers guys, even good numbers guys, most often aren't charismatic or out of the box thinkers. We know the former GM wanted him to be the guy and just like clockwork, he became the guy.
He really didn't have much of a chance. It started bad, it ended worse. No idea why he left and unlike some, i don't really care. I didn't know him well enough to like or dislike him, though i found many of his comments to be reckless and thoughtless.
The next GM should be a lot of things, and i would hope one of his/her greatest strengths will be to value the community/membership as we move forward.
Tom, I have been enjoying your post on TOSC, no seriously. There is one thing that has puzzled me and that when thane two previous boards were impaneled you would cite Robert’s under a point of order or some other section. With this board you have been silent like a sphinx. It would have helped at the last board meeting when there was confusion concerning whether an amendment was defeated or not. They could have used a little assistance.
Since I readily admit that you are more informed on this subject than I and considering not everyone has a computer or knows how to use it and I plead guilty to that, you might be more vocal at meetings when snags surfaced. The least the board could say is sit down and be quiet. If that is not said, you da man.
See you in a couple of weeks.
I thought the point of this group and blog was to educate and communicate.
I guess I was wrong. What a shame.
The blog posts i write is and does exactly that (educate and communicate). The comment section is for others to share their thoughts...whatever they may be if relevant to Sun City. Hope that helps clarify.
But I don't think name calling and personal attacks are appropriate anywhere! Differences of opinions, suggestions, and even criticism of someone's vote or stance should be allowed but insulting comments should be verboten, eliminated or the poster taken off of the site.
Yes, it sure does.
I couldn't agree more.
Nice to have information and opinions when requested - given in a civil and polite manner.
People, I was civil and pointed out facts. I’m sorry if the truth is offensive to you. So Bill, when does the education begin?
I will begin, later this month the Board will vote on the RCSC insurance renewal ( except health insurance which has a different renewal date and not in the purview of the committee) for a renewal premium in excess of $800k. Quite a responsibility yet aside from the chair and co-chair not one other Board member has attended the two meetings with our insurance brokers. I know of a few Board members that know nothing about insurance other than maybe their auto and Homeowners insurance and even then probably only when they have a claim. Explain to me how they can vote to spend over $800k over the next year and really not know what it is for.
Budget and Finance has held two meetings thus far and a third is approaching and no Board member has attended and the co-chair was MIA for the last meeting. The guests that did appear I believe were members of SCA (fine with me and I welcome them) and a group I call the money guys which is a de facto investment club (again fine with me). The committee will soon be discussing the budget for next year, possibly a increase in fees, financial statements and possibly investments. How can you vote on a budget when missing the cursory work putting it together?
What does this tell you about Board commitment. I know they lead busy both personal and Director lives but are these not the two most important committees for the Board and the community. Just asking.
See no insults, snarky comparisons or general comments people find uncomfortable.
Deus illud volt
Your snarky comments and name calling (see above) are simply you being you...a pain in the ass. You have told us repeatedly what a genius you are and what dummies everyone else is. Your above post is classic, you along can solve Sun City's problems. Sound familiar to another narcissist who thinks he's better than everyone else.
Honestly Dave, your ass can be booted from posting here (and should have been a long ago). No board members are expected to be experts at everything. In fact, we made that exact mistake when we let the previous general manager be the resident expert om everything from solar purchases to budgeting. Then the last general was the "expert" on running us like a business, not a community. There's little wonder why he has left the building when he placed a higher value on 300k of outside full play pass golf revenue than membership satisfaction.
The new board is spot on track. Asking the members who do have expertise and years of background in specialized areas to jump on board and join committees is how Sun City was built and why we were so successful. Returning to those roots is wonderful...to most of us.
It's a far better outcome than having that bunch of board members you were so enamored with pretending they knew what they were doing. 40 million dollars for Mountain View might have been the single dumbest idea in Sun City's history. And those who the folks you spent so much of your time with having your nose up their asses.
If you haven't figured it out yet Dave, you've now officially pissed me off. If tomorrow you wake up and cannot log in, perhaps the fact that you are a "genius" and way smarter than everyone else living in Sun City will register and will be capable of understanding why you've been banned.
He's has some valid points and you know it. And yes, he touched a nerve.
But you've been snarky too.
As long as he behaves from now on you should let him stay and have an opinion.
Oh and btw, both of you are narcissistic.
Clearly you are entitled to your opinion anonymous. Rather than wasting my time going back over his name calling, i simply went to Janet Curry's post above, here's what she quickly summarized from just this thread:
Tom Marone - idiot
Karen McAdam - obtuse chatterbox
Janet Curry (me) - liar
Board - bozos
Bill Pearson - caught with his.....hand in the cookie jar.
Mind you, that's a snippet of his name calling. I am guilty of calling Dave names...you know like self-proclaimed genius and the smartest guy in Sun City. Why is that? Because he tells us how he is so much smarter than everyone else; constantly.
As far as me, what i write and what i say, i often remind readers..."it's just one man's opinion." I've never claimed to be right, what i have said more times than i can count...i believe the membership should be the ones to decide who was/is right and wrong. That's what our history taught us, that's why we were so successful. It was never, NEVER, the general manager who determined our outcome or future...that is until 2006.
This board has put us on a solid path forward; infinitely better than where we've been In my opinion). They are doing it and frankly i have little or nothing to do with any of it. I write my "opinions" and after that they either listen or they don't. Both work for me.
I'm more than happy listen to your arguments, especially if you can back them up with facts, rather than your opinions...because at this point, that's all they are...your opinions.
So bill, you drag old posts but avoid the issue that the two most mportant committees are not attended by at one other board member. In my last post please tell anything I said that was not true.
You want to ban me from this site, fine as it exposes that truly you only want people who agree with you. You tilt at windmills while the bigger issues are overlooked. The most post I read from you was after the first SAC meeting when the Gen Xer told you want basically their interests were and none of them were what we are talking about now. I said at an exchange in April that nobody knows what future generations that move want and the reply from the Board is we have people working on it. Guess what, you think you know but you really don’t know.
The estimate of $40Mill on Mountainview is bogus. Until we have the final drawings and blueprints with the architect’s estimate nobody knows because we are discussing what will be going there and will be through part of next year.
This may be my last post because you don’t like my style, my opinions or just don’t like me. You people are not the first and will not be the last. I have dealt with more difficult people than you and I will still be attending Exchanges and Board meeting either agreeing or exposing nonsense. You want to file incident reports against me, cool been there done that in the past. Nothing like being banned from something I don’t utilize. Guess I am subsidizing some poor person who didn’t read the documents.
We can’t tell people to shove it unless we all get behind and push. So. I’ll. Univ. 1969
Christine, or whomever you choose to be today…
“What’s it called when you think everyone hates you?
There’s no clinical definition for thinking that everyone hates you, but there may be a few psychological explanations for why you feel this way.
Paranoia. This is an accumulation of thoughts and beliefs that everyone is against you. Paranoia can be a disorder in itself, but it’s also a symptom of other mood or personality disorders.
Cognitive distortions. These are thought patterns not necessarily rooted in reality, such as all-or-nothing thinking, negative projections, and overgeneralizing, to name a few. A 2015 review of research describes a cognitive distortion as “a lie our brain sends to our conscious mind.”
Loneliness. Hafeez says that feelings of loneliness are often associated with feeling like everyone hates you. Maybe you haven’t had as many social interactions as you’d like, and you begin to convince yourself that your friends are upset with you.
Insecurity. In some cases, believing that everyone hates you could also be tied to characteristics of insecurity such as low self-esteem or self-worth.
Bullying. Thanks to social phenomena like the bystander effect and herd mentality, both cyber- and in-person bullying can start with one individual and spread to a whole group.”
https://psychcentral.com/health/everyone-hates-me
First off I did not say everyone hates me. Second, I hope you are not practicing psychiatry without a license. Some people don’t like what I have to say, s9me people don’t like what I have to say and the way I say it and some people like what I have to say and enjoy the way I say it. That’s called freedom of expression. By the way, do the SCA have actual members and how many, hold meetings open to Sun City residents not members can attend or does SCA have. Board and nothing else. I ask because I have never seen on their site an open invitation to all. Or am I making certain people uncomfortable with this question?
Listen, on the education front I told Bill on several occasions that I would educate him on reading an audited financial statement and how to analyze, he repeatedly declined. I offered to Jean Totten the same on two occasions and she declined. I offered the same to Tom Marone he declined. How does this make me a bad person?
Bill has repeatedly said that I have all the answers for Sun City, a statement not based in fact.
If you worked at a company and your team was given an assignment, worked long hours over many months which was ultimately dismissed by management. Then several months later management resurrects your tens works and takes credit for same, what would you call that?
Guess you missed this:
April 18, 2023
Strategic Alternatives Committee (SAC) Co-Chairs Appoint Committee Members, Expert Advisors & Establish Operational Location
The SAC co-chairs, Jeff Darbut, John Fast and Karen McAdam, have announced the following appointments to the SAC:
Committee Members
Player’s Club Bill Loslo
Water Volleyball Scott Herrington
Mini Golf Tamela Ohm
Pickleball Dan Haberman
Dance TBD
Tennis Dave Clawson
Aquatic Fitness Elsa Will
Lawn Bowling Pete Lencheck
Long Range Planning Steve Oaks
MV Neighbor Paul Higgins
MV Neighbor James Keppler
At Large Norm Dixon
At Large Anita Borski
Expert Advisors
General Manger Bill Cook
Director of Building & Infrastructure Mike Wiprud
Director of Operations Chris Herring
Executive Coordinator Marcia Johnson
The SAC will be conducting its weekly meetings in a dedicated space at Oakmont Building B (aka SAC Labs) and will hold an orientation meeting on Friday, April 21 at 2:00pm to orient members of the committee with respect to meeting schedules, communication processes, timelines and other processes and procedures to be used at the SAC Lab.
Additionally, on May 5, 2023:
“The number of allowed occupants per meeting was adjusted and has increased from 24 to 55 with an overflow area in the next room. SAC is open to all “Members of Sun City.
Try to keep up:
https://suncityaz.org/rcsc/strategic-alternatives-ad-hoc-committee-sac/
“This may be my last post because you don’t like my style, my opinions or just don’t like me. **You people** are not the first and will not be the last.”
I stand corrected, should have written, “everyone here.”
Two posters argued you be given a second chance Dave, hence you get to hang around. The threat of being removed had nothing to do with your positions being different; it was simply because you are abrasive and enjoy demeaning others. That "old post" was within the past week. And frankly if i went back over the past two years i could pull out a dozen or more comments where it wasn't about what you were arguing, but the names were calling people.
Yes, i have identified you as the self-proclaimed smartest human being in Sun City...a sheer Genius. Sorry but again if i was so inclined, i could sort through the 100 or more posts where on at least a dozen occasions you have cited your schooling, years of unrivaled experience and how you alone understood what the former GM was doing.
Oddly enough, when questioned about the staggering carry-forward a couple of years back, you plead ignorance because of your health issues. That's a legitimate excuse, though i'm not sure how long you can cling to that argument, but whatever. To be even more clear, i have no interest in rereading what you have said, much of it is incoherent and garbled. Think not...read your last post. Here's a tip; try reading your words before you hit publish...it's an easy fix.
I do want to touch on this comment you made:"What does this tell you about Board commitment. I know they lead busy both personal and Director lives but are these not the two most important committees for the Board and the community. Just asking." You were specifically talking about the Insurance Committee and the Budget and Finance Committee.
My answer is no, absolutely not the two most important committees. Here's why; for the 16 years the previous GM wrote every budget and you guys blessed it. Didn't change it, challenge it or question it. The new GM was on the same path only wasn't as skilled and when faced with the minority board members asking questions, wilted. As far as insurance, really?
But wait, there's more. We served on the board together and i don't remember ever seeing you at a COC committee meeting; ever seeing you at a Communication committee meeting. Did you ever attend a golf advisory meeting? In the 3 years i was president of the Sun City Foundation, i never saw you step in the room a single time (no, you weren't on the board all 3 of those years).
The point is simple and should not be missed. Board members are not expected to attend every committee or organization meeting. You know that as well as i do. Accusing current board members of not attending the meetings YOU THINK are most important is nonsense. It's just your technique to diminish how others are doing their job.
As far as Mountain View, the project sent to the architects was crazy on its face. Three phases (i would argue phase 3 would never be done but at Dale's last meeting on the board still claimed it would be) with an 8 year time line and a projected inflation factor well below what was really happening. When Rich Hoffer challenged Bill Cook's numbers, he was blown off and now Rich has recently written on social media the new figures with inflation for all 3 phases would be in the 50 plus million dollar range.
Finally, the Sun City Advocates were created with the a single goal in mind. As much as we argued over direction, the bottom line was this: Over a 2 year period, elect board members who wanted to see Sun City return to our roots. To embrace the tenets that made Sun City successful. To reinvigorate the membership to become willing participants in the process of self-governance.
It worked, without having a board or holding membership meetings or any real structure for that matter. We simply dug in and did what needed to be done. So no, we aren't a structure that is etched in stone, just RCSC members who love Sun City and want to see it become the best it can be.
Hope that helps answer your questions.
In a culture where teamwork matters, generating and building on each other’s work is not plagiarism! RCSC Board and committee work is collaborative, the sharing of ideas. One committee’s efforts are not “owned” by that group.
Christine, RCSC Strategic Alternatives Committee Meetings are available to view on YouTube. Watch the most recent one – Friday, June 2, 2023.
Here:
https://youtu.be/_OZGeZM6clY
You’re welcome!
Sorry, May 19th meeting link: https://youtu.be/TfW7s_RdxrI
I like you. You're funny and you are smart.
I like everyone here, even if I don't agree with them on some points.
Live and let live.
Peace, man.
Anonymous, if building on each other’s work is good, why didn’t the Board pass the by laws revision last December? With a couple of exceptions to the new Board, why this Kabuki theater that will last the rest of this year and possibly into next year?
You are correct about the past GM writing the budget, but if we have a new group of sheriffs in town, I.,e., the Board don’t you think they would want their fingers in the pie so to speak.
I have sorted out my health issues as it has taken much longer than I realized. The docs told me this but I am my father’s son. I am ready to talk financials and I will tell you something I read in the 2021 audited financial statement, The balance sheet for 2020 had to be restated due to reclassification of numbers to the tune of approximately $7M+. Bet you didn’t see that in the 990’s. It was in the CPA notes. This is why the audited statement is better than the 990’s. Don’t believe me, ask John Fast and I believe John Douhat ( I apologize if I spelled his name incorrectly) as they are both CPAs and MBAs.
Deus illud volt
So Dave, where can i see those adjusted financial statements from 2020 and the 7 plus million dollars and discovered in 2021? Seems to me if those numbers were reclassified, the change should be posted on the RCSC website's financials. No one ever argued the 990's were better. They were just another tool.
Dave,
Our committee's proposed bylaws revision wasn't passed last December because three Directors, Dale Lehrer, Sue Wilson and Mike Hege, REFUSED to support it since it allowed Members to collect signatures for petitions on RCSC property. It might have passed if Darla hadn't changed her mind for the second vote. Not exactly sure why she voted for it on the first reading, but opposed it on the second one.In other words, it wasn't the CURRENT Board that didn't pass our work; it was the FORMER Board.
Three Directors, Sue, Dale, and Allan Lenefsky resigned. Why? You tell me. Sue and Dale had one year left to serve and Allan had two, I believe. I am quite sure I voted for all three at some point, but they scrambled away instead of fulfilling their commitment to their supporters.
The new Board is taking a more measured review of any bylaw changes which is their prerogative as elected Directors. Even our committee's Co Chair,Kat, seems to be favoring changing the bylaws a piece or two at a time. I am confused as to what you would like them to do. If they use some of our work, you accuse them of plagiarism. If they don't pass them right away, you accuse them of continuing this Kabuki theater for the rest of the year. (I haven't noticed any heavy makeup, elaborate costumes or dancing by the Directors.) Please tell us what you think they should do with the bylaws revision we presented.
Dave, we all received the email about the Board candidate packets being available. I know that you were formerly a Director and generally attend most meetings so I suggest you pick up a packet, get the required 100 signatures and run for the Board this fall.
Regarding your criticism of some of the Directors for not attending committee meetings, that's what minutes are for - to inform Directors and Members not in attendance as to what took place. It is impossible for each Director to be in all places at all times.
Bill, to truly see the restatement you would need a copy of the 2020 CPA audit and a copy of the 2021 CPA audit. I will say the note shows the restatement and how the 2020 figures are impacted but I like restating the 2020 balance in its entirety. That is why I have copies of my old analysis forms.
Janet while you are correct about the signatures on RCSC properties, Allen clearly stated that although that change was not in the December bylaws, he promised to motion for that change in 2023 , which he did in March. Remember.
Minutes are a general summation of a committee’s work. Nothing beats being there and listening to the interaction. As for the Insurance committee, the brokers were there to answer any questions regarding renewal, coverages or what a policy covers. You just do not see that in minutes. When I chaired, co-chaired and even my successor, Mike Kennedy, would let the brokers control the meeting and anybody, even guests could raise questions. I consider the Insurance committee that important as we don’t turn on the lights without the protection that insurance provides. We could self insure which is a seriously really bad idea to save over $800k.
I would tackle out a candidate packet but I am termed out. Change the bylaws and I would consider it, in the meantime I like my position now.
Janet, what should the Directors do with our by laws revisio? Add petition signatures on RCSC property, keep the quorum at 800 with a limit of 10 proxies per person and pass them. With the exception of a quorum 500 with Jean’s motion of essentially unlimited proxies ( seriously bad idea), everything I have seen so far was our work right down to the stripping policies from the by laws at the beginning. Only time will tell if I am correct. So far so good.
The posts on TOSC regarding the annual assessments could be a time bomb that would threaten the financial stability of the RCSC if not thought completely through. There has been a certain amount of cluelessness regarding rec cards.
Kinda brings ya back, doesn't it?
With prejudice.
Maybe.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I wish the new people (last 4 years) had lived through the last 15 years here.
I'm sure most of them would come away with a more cautious attitude.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
Me, me, me. I, I, I.
It's a whole different day and age.
Anon, I have lived here for the past 18 years and I have seen many things. I freely admit that his Board bothers me. I am not sure what they are trying to do but bringing back the voice seems to be window dressing, chaos is more likely. They talk about educate but I have not since much if any. I have volunteered to the SCA my skill set which is financial, heavy construction, law and insurance. I know Bill will read this and say there goes Dave again. You don’t want my assistance, fine, I will leave you alone.I think what bothers me the most is members advancing motions from the floor at the annual meeting and then voting on them knowing their vote trumps the Board. What if a small group of members with a ton of proxies gives them a majority and a motion carries that later turns out to be problematic? Nothing in the Articles or by laws provides for nullification. What do we do? I don’t have the answer to that other than it is uncharted territory. John Fast stated he has put his trust in the membership. Unfortunately while I do have faith in the members there are a great number that are ill informed and enough can and will reek hazards. The next big “problem” will be per person (which I admit I am grandfathered in) versus per property and the alleged inequity. Understanding who and how one is eligible for a rec card has opened a can of cluelessness.
I see Mounatain View as a ton of pickleball courts, a swimming pool and a large concrete area which has the ambiance of the exercise heard at san Quentin or everything will be kicked down the road and nothing will done other than another committee to study something ad naseum.
That is it for me and hope to see Monday at the exchange.
You may agree with me
Dave, if the Members pass a problematic motion the Board has the authority to undo it at their next Board meeting. The Members would then be required to go thru the petition process to call for a special meeting and overturn the boards decision. Not an easy process when you consider the Members can hardly get a quorum let alone getting 10% of the population!
In threads over time i have asked you repeatedly about what you thought the members could do Dave to destroy the community? You've never responded other than some mythical idea a small band of rogue members, all wielding boatloads of proxies, could show up and ruin Sun City. You've stated so numerous times now, both in print and from the mic.
So we are really clear about what our Articles of Incorporation say; the membership can override a board's decision regarding the bylaws (that's it). Tom pointed out above the manner, but it really goes deeper than that. Any motion made from the floor regarding a bylaws change has to be submitted before the meeting and posted well in advance of the said meeting. The membership would know of the actions of a crazed few.
The oddity of your argument is this: Those Articles have existed since 1968. Over the years the quorum for a membership meeting was 100 and they held those meetings 4 times per year. I DEFY you to show me, point out one instance where the membership abused that right. Show me ONE freaking time. Please.
On the other hand, there are countless numbers of instances where the board (via the GM) made changes to the bylaws that stuck it square up the members backside. Starting with the bad choice to make single owners (except those of you who were grandfathered) to subsidize couples. How about changing the quorum from 100 to 3500 and then down to 1250 where we went for 12 years without ever holding a membership meeting. Or how did you feel when the board told us we didn't have the right to vote at our membership meeting when in fact the Articles stated we did?
Sorry bud, but i trust the membership to make the right decisions. The vast majority of us living here love it too much to be let it be ruined by a few. You want an example? Look no further than the last two elections. Largest vote turnouts in years and a pretty clearly carved path forward.
Yearly assessments
I see on TOSC there has been a lot of chatter about the way the yearly assessment is charged for single homeowners vs. dual deed owners.
Any property right now that has 2 or more people listed on the deed automatically gets 2 rec cards. That being the case, there are 2 members using the facilities and amenities more than what a single owner does.
Inflation has hit us all including the RCSC which means the costs for everything in Sun City has sky-rocketed, yet we are giving away a free rec card to dual deeded households. A dual deeded household will more than likely use more facilities and amenities than a single deeded household. That’s more wear and tear on facilities and amenitiers.
A possible and probably overlooked means to correct this unfair assessment to single owners is the following;
Current properties with 2 owners will continue to pay a single rate for 2 rec cards and be grandfathered with that rate. New owners as of a certain date that have 2 members on the deed would be assessed for each owner.
In my view that would be a more equitable means of collecting assessments. If you are single you pay the current rate of 525 or 262 if you are grandfathered.
If you are a current property owner with 2 names on the deed you will be grandfathered with that single rate of 525. If you are a new homeowner with 2 names on the deed after (as an example 12/31/23) you pay the assessment at the rate of 525 for each deeded member.
Of course there will be push back from some that it becomes an accounting nightmare. This is the age of technology (of which Sun City has very little of) and I’m sure there is an APP for the above accounting situation. Also, there are grandfathered members paying half the current 525 yearly fee now and it does not appear to be causing any accounting problem.
I’m not a math wiz, but if the suggestion above is implemented, there would not be any loss income from current deeded owners (single or dual) and in future years there would be more.
Sun City must charge the assessment fairly - based on names on the deed.
Just an opinion.
This has been litigated and a decision was rendered by Judge Wismer with prejudice.
Please see the Court's decision for clarity.
With all that this board has on their plates at present, asking them to even look at this will take precious time away from extremely pressing issues.
Bill, you want me to predict the future on stupidity by a small group of members, well I cannot and you cannot either. Ask John Fast or any Board member about the Law of Large Numbers and you will have your answer or if that is too erudite for you, Murphy’s Law. I DEFY you to say that couldn’t happen.
As for the grandfathered assessment, I believe you meant to say couples subsidizing singles. My wife and I purchased in 1998, who I later bought out, and paide our rec fees even though neither of us was 55. We were both working then living in Chicago except for occasional visits here. I moved here in 2005 for a job and worked until 2008. At no time was I aware of the per property. Versus per person. I just paid my assessment when the bill came. It wasn’t until a few years later I learned of the dichotomy. When I was first elected to the Board I learned of the reason and it made sense to me from a financial standpoint. It still makes sense to me, not that I technically profit but the day will come when the status of the property will change due to my moving or my deat, whichever comes first. Since I no longer can participate in action sports and have run out of body parts to rehab for at Fairway, I believe I am subsidizing others who participate or use facilities. That was the contract, I pay my small share for the greater good of the community. You should understand that.
Tom, if the Board has the ability to overturn a member vote, aside from being illegal, if legal but somewhat dodgy, which would prevail, the Articles or the Board decision?
"Tom, if the Board has the ability to overturn a member vote, aside from being illegal, if legal but somewhat dodgy, which would prevail, the Articles or the Board decision?
Dave, it's quite clear in the Articles of Incorporation that both the Board and the Members have the right to amend the Bylaws, however, in the event of a conflict the "Members shall prevail."
Do yourself a favor and go read the Articles of Incorporation, Article VIII, paragraphs 3 and 4.
As I mentioned above, the Board could overturn the Members motion/amendment at their very next Special or Regular Board meeting which would then cause the Members to go thru the petition process to over rule the Board.
I do agree with you on some things, yes.
I used to trust the membership and I was for the lowered quorum at one time. Not anymore. The last 4 years opened my eyes. The values of many moving here now are not the same as mine.
I have seen this show before up close and personal a decade and more ago so I won't be there to watch the same mistakes being made over and over again. Just different people exiting the clown car now. The definition of insanity.
The whole thing is just very sad because this is a wonderful community.
I am amazed that some very, very smart people do not see the truth of what's really going on here. But then most of the newer people only pay attention to social media and what they want, want, want.
No one looks any further than their noses now.
What did someone recently say? We're getting the governance we deserve.
Take care and be well.
Tom, the intention of my question was not 8n regards to the by laws but a situation not covered by the Articles, the by laws or policies.
Say for the sake of argument, a member at the annual meeting along with a small group of friends hold proxies totaling 5,000 votes a vast majority of the members present. Now one of the members puts forth a motion saying that most employees of RCSC including management wear polo shirts identifying them as employees on RCSC property. So far it sounds reasonable. The motion as presented states that since at least management wears identifying clothes, why not the Board Directors since a majority of members could not identify any Board Director. To help identify Board Directors the motion states that Directors should pink pants or shorts signifying the beautiful sunsets here, they should further wear orange polo shirts which signify the sunny days here in Sun City and wear a baseball styled cap in green signifying the desert plants with on the front of the number of years they have served on the Board. While on its face it sounds silly but the small group holds a majority of the voters present via proxies and the motion carries.
Can the Board nullify the member vote because they just don’t like it. Now, the Board nullifies for some idiotic reason other than the real reason that they don’t want to dress this. Consequently, the group goes out and secures the required signatures and then some. Now an election is called for and the group gets out the vote and it passes. In the alternative, a member meeting is held and now the group holds 10,000 votes both in person and via proxies so the motion/ petition passes. Can the Board nullify this vote? Obviously the Articles have not been violated nor the by laws. Essentially they have established a policy and it has passed twice. Question is, does the members vote negate a Board action on the this question? Are there any limitations as to member actions other than illegality or contravening the governing documents that the Board can use?
Let me know your thoughts.
Members cannot pass policies from the floor at an annual meeting. For about the 100th time, they can properly and timely make motions regarding the bylaws and if there is dispute between the board, the members position will be sustained. But you know how it works because Tom has explained it multiple times.
By the way, for about the 10th time; tell me one time under the old documents (quorums of 100 and quarterly membership meetings) the members did anything like you wasted time drafting above...just one freaking time. The we can have serious discussion.
I stand corrected. It was Judge Brodman.
Case number:
CV2015-012458
Dismissed with prejudice in February 2020.
Google the case number and read the last two decisions. These very issues that you mention were litigated with the result of dismissal WITH prejudice.
This is now part of our history.
Hope this helps.
My first comment would be that since the staff employees are under the jurisdiction of the General Manager, this would be considered "affairs of the corporation" and that motion would go back to the board for study per the bylaws.
What really needs to happen is they need to define what the affairs of the corporation actually are, and I think a good argument would be those duties and responsibilities of the General Manager listed on Board Policy 32.
Tom, thought of something else. Anything in Robert’s germane to this situation? I also thought that the Board might pass something prior to the meeting essentially outlawing this, sort of a pseudo ex post facto to head them off at the pass.
Dave, first let me say that "No main motion is in order that conflicts with the corporate charter, constitution, or bylaws..." (RONR 10:26)
If the Board held a meeting and didn't notify the Members, that would be a violation of the bylaws Article V, §5 .
If the Board amended the Bylaws without providing the Members with proper previous notice, that would be a violation of the bylaws and state statute 10-11021.
If the Board called a Special Session that would be held in executive Session and amended the bylaws so that only they would know, that would be a violation of the bylaws.
And based on the Arizona Nonprofit Corporation Act the Members can file a lawsuit against the board for failing to comply with the Articles of Incorporation and bylaws.
I wish you would give more credit to your fellow man rather than assuming that everybody is out there to screw you!
As Bill has mentioned several times, in all the years Sun City has been in existence, there hasn't been one instance where the Members offered any type of amendment that would be destructive to the community!
Thanks for trying Tom but i suspect this is an exercise in fertility (or is futility?). Just kidding, i know the difference in the two; really i do. The simple reality is as we have discussed many times; Dave is a contrarian. He just wants/needs attention and the best way for him to get it is to argue whatever anyone else says.
Suggesting a minority of members are going to storm the castle, armed with thousands of proxies in hand pure silliness. It's nonsensical and pure whimsy at it's finest. However to placate his version and vision of a handful of Sun City Advocates destroying Sun City, let's satisfy his concerns this way: 500 member quorum with a limit of 10 proxies per member attending.
I am and always have been more interested in turning out bodies to the annual membership meeting than using proxies to reach a quorum. That's still my/our goal, to put butts in chairs. Ownership comes when we all become responsible and accountable.
Tom, thanks for the info I really appreciate it. The thing is that you skirted the example as it really did not violate the Articles nor the by laws and posed no question as to its legality. So if my example or something was not a violation and is passed by the members in a normal fashion , could the Board negate the decision wholly on the basis they didn’t like without a viable argument? Could the Board negate if it was presented subsequently via petition process and passed? Do you understand what I am getting at here?
Bill, contrary to popular thinking, I am not a contrarian, but thanks for the nor to my reference of The Princess Bride. Remember the last official member the quroun was met not by butts by over 700 proxies. The reason for my example is to determine the limits of Board authority on member proposals either by motion or petition. Also are there any instances barring violation of statutes, Articles or by laws where the members voice supersedes the Board’s? I just find it a murky area and John Fast said that there area guardrails but didn’t elaborate. You should be concerned also because if you want to bring back the members voice, better make sure that voice isn’t limited to a once a month bitch session. Hard to believe but I am on your side, I just think differently.
Rhetorical question, how did Linda McIntyre know so much about the Lori Ellington situation as it was conducted in executive session unless Lori leaked it?
You're absolutely correct Bill. Dave is nothing more than a simple contrarian. If he was as smart as he portends to be you would think that he would first read the proper documents before asking stupid questions? But no. He's just looking for attention!
He was the one guy on the Ad Hoc Bylaws Committee who stated, "I don't give a damn about Robert's Rules". So it's no wonder he continues to ask stupid questions that are readily answered within Robert's Rules!
I guess those of us who actually take the time (a waste of time) to answer Dave are simply satisfying and accommodating his desire to self-entertain himself!
Perhaps we are nothing more than enablers?
Dave. Seriously. If you have such a burning desire for information, ask me personally.
OK Linda, what’s the deal?
Hey Linda, hoping everything is going good for you guys this summer. Try and stay cool. Lot's of work to do after the summer break with the RCSC.
And to Tom, let's lay out a strategy for the next board meeting to allay the fears that have been spouted about how the members will destroy the community by having a voice. Talk to you guys soon.
Tom, you are correct that I said during a by laws committee meeting. Actually it was either the first or second before we banned you and Jean Totten for not following the rules set by the chair. Permit me to refresh your memory, Allen cleared stated that was said in the room stays in the room but you two thought the rules didn’t apply to you like someone else I know. Hence we closed future meetings. I stated that because I saw our work as stripping relevant policies from the bylaws, rewriting certain by laws for updating, rewriting for clarity and adding by laws if necessary to reflect language in the Articles and suggestions from members from the December meeting and review by legal counsel as to validity with a possible review by a certified parliamentarian. Then release to the Board for their comments. I imagine that you will bring up next that I didn’t own a copy of Robert’s, which is true because I never had a need for it the first 72 years of my life, court procedure yes, Robert’s no.. Of course you do not own a copy of Black’s Law Dictionary because you never needed it.
So., back to the question, is there a situation where the members pass a motion that is not illegal, does not violate the by laws or policies or Robert’s which they would prevail? This question is not contrarian, it goes to the heart of the member voice and community which Bill talks about.
Hi, Bill. Summer has been a bit crazy so far - it WAS cool this morning; 60 degrees! You're right about a lot to do after the summer break.
The Board has its plate full, plus the various committees with multiple projects. This isn't the typical "summer shut down" everyone is used to. But keeping the momentum is important.
I think the proposal you made to Tom makes sense. It's always good to be prepared when there's a lot of noise.
You guys stay cool. Keep in touch.
Thanks Linda. Hearing Tom has crafted a brilliantly written piece for the Independent that spells it all out and makes everything perfectly clear. It would be refreshing to see the board paying attention to what our documents call for rather than making crap up on the fly.
Dave your inquiring mind amuses me. I know nothing more than anyone else that is a friend or associate of the member of which you speak. Therefore, end of conversation.
Hey Linda, we miss you and your words of wisdom.
I think SC is in trouble and nobody seems to be doing anything about it. The new trend seems to be buy a house in SC, turn it into a group home, sober home, Airbnb or rental property, charge tenants lots of money and only pay a small amount in property taxes?
I certainly wouldn't want one of those situations living next to me!
It's all very troubling. We definitely need an active Legal Affairs Committee. There's a lot at stake for our beloved community.
T9m and Linda, I asked John Fast about the legal committee and why he deferred the motion to September. He said he wanted to sharpen the goals and qualifications to be on the committee. Members would be interviewed as to qualifications. At the moment he has no set limit on members for the committee, but is looking for members with strong legal backgrounds, preferably attorneys, but would take members with long experience in the law and civil judicial proceedings.
Since you didn’t answer my question Tom I take that to mean you have no answer. I did pose my question to a management person and they believed it was a rather cloudy issue.but an 8nteresting factual situation. Guess I’m not the only contrarian in Sun City.
Good suggestion Linda and interesting to note, i had given John Fast and notebook filled with legal opinions lodged and presented to the RCSC boards from around the 1980's till they were kicked to the curb. Everything from state statutes to rewriting community documents. It was interesting to note, they were recommendations.
Even more interesting was the reason they were disbanded at the recommendation by the former/former Gm. She claimed it was because some of them weren't licensed in AZ or because their expertise as a judge wasn't local. The reality was some of the changes she made to our documents had no basis or legal support. Looking back at how poorly our documents had become, one might consider the decision to end the committee shortsighted.
Well Bill, apparently Jan Ek didn't want people smarter than herself standing in her way?
Tom and Bill - I am confident that to get started there are competent individuals in SC and SCW (also impacted if we want to partner or not) that can at least research and start to gather current information, case law if there is any, etc. We have to start somewhere. Just because an attorney isn't licensed in AZ doesn't mean they don't have the necessary skills to assist and understand the law and/or have colleagues in AZ. Not an appropriate answer.
All true gang, getting rid of the smarter people in the room insured no one could or would challenge or question her actions. Loyalty was the measuring tool she preferred.
Wasn't there a budgeting and finance c0ommittee meeting today Linda?
Yes there was, Bill. Scheduled for a Reserve Policy Review. Very productive meeting. There will be some good information put together from the Finance team, and transparency moving forward. I think the Chair will be making some announcements at the Board meeting. The committee will be meeting more regularly moving forward.
Encouraging news, Linda. Thanks for your contributions to the committee and commitment to the membership. Your vast experience is welcome and appreciated.
Thanks Anonymous. The tasks ahead will be challenging, but I'm encouraged by today's meeting.
Thanks Linda, i heard it had went well and it sounded like the acting general manager is jumping in with both feet. I sat with him one time and his answers to my questions were easy to follow, clear and concise. Budgeting and finance doesn't have to be complicated unless the goal is to keep members from understanding what is going on.
I know the challenges include the discussions regarding a reserve study. It shouldn't be as it was on the table back in 2010 (i have a copy of it somewhere in my records), the bigger problem was the former, former GM didn't pay much attention to it.
Targeted funds for certain projects were redirected often. Then we got really bizarre and just started shoveling money into carry-forward and ignored necessary projects all together. It was a crazy way to function and yet no one seemed to care or challenge her.
Good to hear, sounds like we are back on track.
You are correct Bill, Judgment Day is coming and very soon. You will not like it.
You heard it here first.
Bill,
“Budgeting and finance doesn't have to be complicated unless the goal is to keep members from understanding what is going on.”
Thanks to all who inspired MEMBERS to
rightfully be active participants again, as Sun City was intended!
COMMUNICATE. EDUCATE. PARTICIPATE!
There is a major commication/education effort that must take place provided by management, Finance and Budget, the Board and probably our reserve policy experts. Lack of transparency and poor budgeting policies for many years has done harm to the organization and thus the community. There will be hills to climb and it will take a total community effort that cannot be done in a vacuum.
Hey Linda. One of my all time favorite leadership/interpersonal relationship videos was by Morris Massey. Called What "You Are Is Where You Were When." He helped break down the generational differences that existed and better yet, what could change people of their long-standing personal traits. Significant Emotional Events (SEE) could be a catalyst for change. I would argue, COVID19 was a SEE.
That aside, much like i wrote on the marketing thread on TOSC, we need to grasp how we got to where are today and why. Nope, can't change the fact we are here, but we can change the foolishness that drove us to the mess we are in.
Trying to be like the other 1000 age restricted communities (just have fun) and let someone else fix it for us was a recipe for disaster. Touting how cheap we could live here for and ignoring even the most basic of technology needs was pathetically shortsighted.
It is impossible for me to imagine, as stuff was kept well beyond the shelf life, someone who had volunteered as committee members to oversee budget and finance, didn't scream from the mountaintop about stockpiling carry forward money. It simply made no sense.
We know that eventually we end up paying for our sins; the next several years will be no different. It's exactly why it is so important to engage the membership every step of the way. Buy-in happens when those living here realize it's our community, not some make believe organization who exists above us and has absolutely no regard for us.
Linda, you forgot that there was no assessment increase for six years and there were planning on making it seven when realized not a good idea with a $2M hole in the budget. I said at last year’s meeting of B&F last May that inflation was going to kill us unless some sort of increase. Remember?
I do look forward to educating the membership on the Reserve and yesterday’s presenter is just the person. Everyone should understand at the end and his response to questions really clarified any issues.
Deus illud volt.
I hope that whatever happens is beneficial to ALL the members and for the future of the corporation.
Thanks to all, especially Bill, Linda and Anonymous, for their efforts with helping RCSC get back on solid financial footing. I love Sun City. Fortunately, I also have a full life in Nebraska so I am busy with activities here, as well as visiting with family members. I keep up to date by watching the meeting and Exchange videos and reading SCA and TOSC blogs but don't seem to find the time to research things to post. Perhaps when it is too hot and humid to be outside here........right now it is lovely and we just got the "million dollar rain" that we needed.
Would love to know how many other headhunting firms they interviewed to search for the new GM before they went with this one. What is this firm's past successes and qualifications for a decision that is this crucial to the future of our community?
Also, if there is any prior relationship of any member of the board to this firm it should be disclosed.
I mean, that is, if you want to be transparent.
I thought we were big on transparency now. ?
“What is this firm's past successes and qualifications for a decision that is this crucial to the future of our community?”
CIZEK ASSOCIATES, INC
30 years in business
85% + assignments that are repeat clients
88% + successful candidates remain a minimum of 5 years
99% + search completion rate
National Headquarters
2415 E Camelback Rd
Suite 700
Phoenix, AZ 85016
(602) 553-1066
info@cizekassociates.com
Website: https://cizekassociates.com/
Been there done that. I've already researched them. But thank you so much.
What about the other questions?
What other firms were in the running for this assignment?
What did this firm offer that made it the outstanding choice?
How much are we contracted for this task?
Are there any relationships to current or past board member(s)?
If this board selectively cherry picks that which it chooses to be transparent about then how is this board any different from those in the past?
This is very important to the future of our community.
Some of us are respectfully requesting answers.
Email board members:
BoardofDirectors@suncityaz.org
Goes to all nine board members
RCSC 2023 Board
Kat Fimmel President
kfimmel@suncityaz.org
Karen McAdam Vice President
kmcadam@suncityaz.org
Jean Totten Secretary
jtotten@suncityaz.org
John Fast Treasurer
jfast@suncityaz.org
Steve Collins Director
scollins@suncityaz.org
Jeff Darbut Director
jdarbut@suncityaz.org
Denny Nichols Director
dnichols@suncityaz.org
John Nowakowski Director
jnowakowski@suncityaz.org
Jim Rough Director
jrough@suncityaz.org
Why did you bother to ask if
you already had your answer?
(Your comment to an answer provided by anonymous:
“Been there done that. I've already researched them. But thank you so much.”
I hate the anonymous feature on posts because it's really hard to follow who is answering whom. Too bad we can't identify them anon #1, #2 and the like. At least it would make a bit more sense.
Be that as it may, i found one of questions curious; asking how the new board is different from the old board is like asking the difference between an elephant and ant? Sorry, because i can't answer how they arrived at their choice for the head hunter, but the suggestion they got them because of some kind of previous relationship is absurd.
I know the board members well enough to know if there was a conflict of interest by one of them they would either recuse themselves or seriously get their backside handed to them by the other board members. That would be the classic case of "conflict of interest,"
More importantly the suggestion regarding transparency is even more odd. Think about it in these terms: What head hunter did the prior board use to find Bill Cook? You know the answer to this as well as i; none. He was the existing GM's first choice and those holding the reigns simply went along. To Rich Hoffer's credit, he argued against him, but for naught.
I also have been told several of the 9 member board were precluded from even being involved with the initial screenings and were only brought in at the end when they had pretty much decided Cook was the choice. Hopefully this new board will include all the board members from the start of the process through the end of it.
We'll see...but comparing what was to what is simply is unrealistic.
I looked up the search firm and if the picture on their web page is accurate there are a total of nine employees. What I found a bit strange was the site talked about repeat business but doesn’t name one Client. Search firm usually advertise their best clients, such as Koran Ferry. Of course KF is world wide and Cizek is somewhat local, but what are their successes
I imagine we will never the basis for choosing this company, what the salary that is offered, the job description (which should be available to members) firm’s compensation for a successful search, what guarantee do we have is hire does not work out within the first year resume of successful candidate (should be available to members). How many years is covered by the employment contract.
I would like do know the numbers behind the statistics. Not a contrarian but they are spending a decent chunk of our money for this and the payout to Bill Cook, so I believe a little transparency would be nice
.Happy June 19th,
Dave,
I agree with you and the others that the Board should be more forthcoming with information about hiring the search firm, especially the cost, timeline, and their reasoning for hiring this firm. If there are any relationships with them, it should be disclosed. I would not be opposed if someone has been involved with them in the past and found their work proficient. I have been involved in several CEO searches and found the firms we worked with to be effective. They will know the individuals who would be a good fit. As Bill stated earlier, I hope this will be a national search. Yes, RCSC Members need to know more about this.
I am not aware of any payout to Mr. Cook. Is that a fact or rumor? I would not be surprised if there was, and expect that has been part of the contract all along. It would be good if the terms of the next contract, including all compensation, is available on the website. That would help with transparency and is not necessarily unusual in this day and age.
Dave, I hold no grudge against you. You are entitled to your opinions. However I don't find it appropriate for insults and name calling. If you recall, I was one of two people who likely kept you from getting thrown off of this blog even after you insulted me. Please don't let it happen again.
I agree that the review of having an appropriate reserve is important. I am not one that knows what amount that should be or how to achieve it. On the other hand, I don't think RCSC should postpone necessary maintenance until the study is complete. I am surprised the Metal Club continues to stay open with the deferred maintenance there. I know an individual who was electrocuted working in his garage while he was defrosting his refrigerator. Water and electricity is not something to be casual about.
Also, insurance is important. I am probably over-insured which is my decision. I was glad to see that RCSC is getting bids on their insurance packages. Are our insurance policies on the website? Reading them might help some of us seniors to fall asleep! I recall Andy Rooney saying that insurance policies are written in language harder to understand than Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
Hope everyone has a good week!
Did RCSC get insurance bids for 2023-2024? Not according to the Insurance Committee minutes!
RECREATION CENTERS OF SUN CITY, INC. Insurance Committee
April 21, 2023
Minutes regarding RCSC insurance renewal.
Presentation by Lockton Company representatives.
Committee voted to accept coverage terms 2023-2024.
Next Insurance committee meeting, March 8, 2024.
Minutes:
https://470eec.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2023_04_21-Insurance-Committee-Summary.pdf
Thank you for being the voice of reason and common sense.
Anon, I am not sure of your questions as I see it two ways. First did RCSC send out a request for bid to other insurance brokers. No, I was instrumental in the hiring of Lockton back in 2013. We did bring in other brokers , Marsh, AON, Gallagher but only Lockton understood how we operate and our needs, in other words they got us from the get go.
The second interpretation would be does Lockton send out our covers to bid as they are a broker representing many companies. They do submit our renewals to current carriers for renewal premium. Unlike, say your home and/or auto insurance, large package P&C are built on relationships and they saying in insurance, it costs more to get a new Clint than retain one. Our current insurers have had a relationship with us for years and do do their best to retain our business. Some lines are hard to place and staying with them makes sense. The past year has been difficult for P&C insurers with fires, floods, hurricanes and the like. While our overal premium has gone up, each insurer does it best to give us the best possible renewal premium. Also changing brokers is really a pain in the tush because of all the underwriting information required, sending to ton of different companies hoping to save a few bucks is really not cost effective.
I would be happy to show you the spreadsheet for this year and explain coverages to the best of my ability if you wish. Leave contact info here and we can set something up.
Christine, no thank you.
While relationships are important in any type of business, my initial thought is if Lockton has been our broker for over ten years, it many be time to see if that continues to be the BEST fit for RCSC. Insurance companies change and there may be another that could do better. It is also possible for a vendor, in this case Lockton, to "get comfortable" with the current setup with RCSC. We can be taken for granted by them or anyone else we typically hire as vendors. Business in our country is built on competition and the insurance companies are no different know it.
Just like the Board needs to know if there are any "cozy" deals with any vendor on the Management team, it is important for them to know the same about other Board members or anyone on our committees. Dave, can you assure us that you or any others on the committee do not receive any paybacks, trips, gifts, or other improprieties from Lockton? When someone is so insistent not to get bids from other vendors, people get somewhat suspicious. I would like to see any written standards for insurance bids from an insurance professional organization or the Arizona Department of Insurance. I can do a bit of investigating myself.
I am not pointing any fingers at anyone involved with RCSC, but I know of a situation where a staff member of a very large organization working under an elected board discovered that there was a "sweet" relationship between a couple of other staff members and the firm that was in charge of their retirement programs. The organization hadn't sought any outside bids for over a dozen years. I know at least one of those staff members is no longer with the organization.
When spending other's money, there must be complete trust and transparency. That is the overriding responsibility of the Board, Management and any Members serving on committees.
I am also surprised that the insurance committee only meets once a year. It seems like they should also review many of the insurance claims, especially if they are sizeable. If repairs or different procedures are needed, they could be sure they have been completed. Even if the properties committee oversees repairs, it doesn't hurt to have a second one looking after it.
I agree that early in 2024 other companies should be requested to bid. We may already have the best deal and relationship now but it can't hurt to do a checkup. Things change.
I am of the mindset now that ALL of our board members, management, staff and possibly certain committees involved with sensitive information be background checked and have to undergo financial disclosures on a yearly basis.
I do think we have been fortunate to have a good and well qualified insurance committee.
Whenever there is $ involved there is always the possibility for fraud.
Great article in the AARP magazine this month on medical fraud that I'd highly recommend.
Nothing surprises me anymore.
Janet , when I first read your post I was outraged, then I thought of using many colorful metaphors, but finally I chilled out and decided to shoe some empathy along with a warning. You attacked my honesty and integrity along with that of the committee without a shred of evidence to the contrary. Be careful as this could be construed as libelous. I also refuse to provide you with the requested assurances as it is an insult to my intelligence.
I realize you had a bad experience when you on either the school board or the city council, but the RCSC is not West Sand Dune, Nebraska and this is the big time. We play by different rules.
As I previously stated I was instrumental in securing Lockton. The facts of the case are that my first month on the Board the GM notified us that our previous broker, an individual, was fired for being essentially a crook. As chair of the Insurance committee I believed it was my duty to find a replacement as none of my fellow Board members knew anything about insurance. I decided the best course of action was to bring in brokers I had worked with in Chicago during my career, AON, Marsh, Gallagher, Willis were all national/international standing. I also contacted Lockton, medium sized broker I also had a working relationship.
The GM sent relevant underwriting material to all five to see if any were a good fit. Dates and times were arranged by all concerned and with the committee and GM (the saying was if Mom ain’t happy, no one is).The four “big guys” made their pitch and it was quite evident that they did not “get us” and also intimated that we were not a large enough account for the effort. Lockton was the last and they “hit it out of the park.” They clearly understood how we operated, our requirements and that being their account was valuable to them. The committee immediately voted retain Lockton subject to Board approval. They have been our broker ever since and have proved their value ever since time and again suggesting coverages that were new, to our benefit, cyber coverage and liability as well as coverages no longer needed, terrorism. To quote you we are “very comfortable” with Lockton.
Considerng that you want to test the waters, there must a broker or brokers out there better than we have currently retained. That leads to the question who? Please let me know and they must have a local office and a proven track record.
I agree with your statement regarding trust and transparency, but it also reveals your lack of understanding of insurance at this level.
To clarify, the insurance committee meets twice a year, March for a renewal strategy meeting covering the state of various market conditions, insurance mods, deductibles, changes in insuring agreements, new policies germane to RCSC operations, etc. for the coming policy year. The second meeting is in May where Lockton presents the renewals for the coming policy year along with terms and conditions. There can be additional meetings if warranted.
Members are provided with loss runs for the present policy term along with the previous four years, which is the norm in underwriting.
Anon, I hope you find the above useful as it is an expansion of what I posted earlier. I will say here that I have always respected confidentiality where applicable. I refuse to submit to a background check and more importantly a financial statement as the Board has no vested interest in my finances. I handle no money for RCSC and any information I possess which is not confidential, is public information and easily located. Confidential I do possess, which is very little, is safely secured in my residence or a safe deposit box at the bank. If my refusal causes me to resign, so be it.
Thank you. I never doubted your integrity for a minute and appreciate your service in many capacities to Sun City over the years.
I am just very frustrated with all things Sun City the past few years.
Anon, thanks for that. I feel the same way, lying directors, clueless candidates, people out for revenge for one reason or another, endless drivel about the same thing, the solution to the problem is another committee, manufactured crisis. It’s a wonder anything was accomplished.
I did have other info to add on my post but was restricted by maximum amount of characters.
Mr. Pot, let me introduce you to Mr. Kettle: I hate when people throw out the term libel when they are asked a question. Instead, let's look more closely at this statement made in the very same breath: "The facts of the case are that my first month on the Board the GM notified us that our previous broker, an individual, was fired for being essentially a crook."
Good God, we should contact the previous carrier and see if they want to sue someone's ass for calling them "crooks?" The dribble never stops does it? This is the same guy who quit and left the board because of...what did you accuse them of again?
Bill, since you were on the Board that time and it was at he first work session, you heard Jan that he was fired for being a crook. He was an individual broker if memory serves me correctly.
As for my resignation , a director who I never named did some shady shit on three different occasions which should have had the Director kicked off the Board, but he was a lap dog for the GM.. Wereyou there for that October, 2018 meeting?
The term you are looking for is drivel not dribble.
You really have a selective memory when it suits like that January, 2013 meeting.
Interesting that you basically ignored everything else in that post. Why is that? Did I find a subject that is way out of your realm of expertise?
Dave,
If you are seriously thinking of suing me or any else for libel, you must certainly realize, from your experience as a law clerk or whatever your position was, that any of your own past postings will be brought up in any legal action. However, since I didn’t say anything libelous about you or the Insurance Committee, I won’t spend a minute being concerned.
I asked a simple question that could have been answered with a simple “Yes” or “No”. I also stated that I wasn’t pointing any fingers at anyone associated with RCSC which would include committees.
I have always stated that accountability is of utmost importance and I will continue with that philosophy. Anytime I was on a Board or involved in an organization where I influenced financial decisions, I expected my actions to be scrutinized. Don’t you feel the same way?
Just reading the news, many people in high places are currently being accused of improprieties – our President, his family, several past Presidents and even Supreme Court justices. It is not out of the realm of possibilities that these types of things happen in local politics as well. I have seen it in places where I worked, in public and nonpublic organizations, and businesses. We always need to have our eyes open. If the shoe doesn’t fit, just don’t wear it.
The Insurance Committee’s minutes indicate that there will be a 25.3% increase in premiums this year compared to 14.5% last year. (Director Rough’s motion is for 24.2%.) Although many reasons were given for this increase, that seems to be very high. The increase is approaching a quarter of a million dollars for just one year. Again, just wondering if we are getting the best buy for our buck. Has there ever been consideration for multiple year quotes such as three years?
Regarding your assertion that I live in “West Sand Dune, NE”, no such place exists, as you well know. It was just an opportunity for you to direct another insult at me. I have lived most of my life on the edges of the Sandhills and have traveled them often. They are not Chicago…….Thank Goodness! The Nebraska Sandhills are beautiful wide-open expanses, sparsely populated with hard working, honest, down to earth people, clear skies with with little to no pollution, and low crime. I will take the Nebraska Sandhills any day over Chicago with its high murder and crime rate, pollution, mass humanity, noise and litter. You don’t need to look down your nose at me any longer.
In fact, the golfing world has become aware of the beauty of the NE Sandhills which is becoming a golfing mecca with five or six highly rated golf courses available to the golfing elite. Golfers from all over fly in to frequent these courses.
Whether you are a golfer or not, the Sandhills is a perfect place to get back to nature. However, be aware, the weather patterns can be extreme and there are long distances between towns. It’s not a place for the faint of heart.
I will stand by my thoughts that it might be appropriate to entertain thoughts of looking at other vendors whether it is a company that services all of our HVAC systems, solar panels, construction firms, or insurance brokers. I am not saying it is a must, but should be a consideration.
Dave, please tell us what the total insurance package with Lockton costs for 2022-23 and the dates the policy starts and ends. I could not find that information in either the minutes of the Insurance Committee or the motion by Director Rough for June’s Board meeting. It seems that would be a important information to give to the Members outright.
Have fun in “the big time”!
Both Insurance motions unanimously passed their first reading at today’s board meeting, 6.29.2023
Explanation for majority of premium increase:
50% liability due to more RCSC incidents of slip and falls
25% Workman’s Comp
Janet, I will cut the libelous stuff for the time being. I believe you want the renewal cost for 2023-2034 which is $873,130 subject to a premium for flood coverage which is currently being ironed out. The quote originall received was deemed to high by both Lockton and management. Lockton securing alternative quote and when RCSC finds a quote acceptable, Lockton will bind coverage. The coverage period for the P&C coverage is 7/1/23-6/30/24.
The reasons given for the premium increases are the experience with our liability coverage, specifically a large number of slip and falls, experience in the workers comp line. I would also add the overage experience of 8nsurers the past year with floods, hurricanes, tornados and wildfires. This experience not only impacts insures but also layer insurers and reinsurers. You are looking at a very large net that affects anyone with an insurance policy.
Hope that answers your questions.
His majesty’s Justice William Blackstone
Catch my recent book on Contracts
Thanks, Dave, for the information.
I read the summary of today's Board meeting and noticed the Board approved the insurance premium and waived the second reading. It would seem that they had no choice because the coverage starts in two days. Is there any reason that it was not on the May Board agenda since the Committee met with Lochton on April 21st? That would alleviate the need to waive the second reading. Is it done this way every year?
The other question I asked was if quotes for multiple years were ever considered. I know that is fairly commonplace for large entities. If not, what is the reason?
I will now enjoy the rest of the evening on my deck watching the video of the meeting. It's usually more entertaining than a movie.
My understanding is that the Insurance Committee only meets once per year. Seems to me that's not enough time to adequately gather information, decide if they should get other bids, negotiate rates, longer terms, etc. Seems more due diligence is required for something as important as insurance, and one that carries such a large price tag. It sounds like how RCSC uses the same contractors. And. Another question I have: do all committee members involved in any way with finances, contracts, etc., sign Conflict of Interest Statements. There is a requirement to recuse or at a minimum disclose if there is a previous or current working/personal or professional relationship with a current or potential vendor. If not, it's time to get their house in order. It's not just for Board members.
Janet, the reason it was not on the May agenda is because, and this is commonplace, insurers do not want to bind coverage more than 30 days in advance. A binder is a legal instrument which binds coverage(s) to the premium presented and the coverages agreed upon. Since insurance is essentially a contract of adhesion, everybody has to be happy with the terms and conditions. If something happens during the binder period that would affect terms and conditions, new ones would be negotiated. It is true that this has been done every year. When the committee recommends approval of the terms and conditions to the Board in April, we in a de facto sense convey authority to have exclusive contact with the broker, subject to notification of anything of importance. This has been SOP since I have been on the committee for the past 12 years.
I admit that I am a bit confused by your question concerning multiple quotes for multiple years. To resond I need clarification.
Glad you are enjoying the video, probably because I didn’t get up and speak. That’s a joke.
Anon, rather than resond directly, I believe you should go back and review my responses to similar questions raised. I can see that you are unfamiliar with insurance at this level. As I have stated previously, this is not like an individual buying car insurance or property insurance. It is much more complex and involved. I will extend the same invitation that I extended to Janet, the next committee meeting will be in March, 2024 probably the second week. You can learn the mechanics of the renewal and meet our brokers. I am quite sure they will be happy to meet with you.
Happy July 2nd everybody as that is when the Declaration of Independence was signed. It was read to the public on the 4th. A good book to read is by one of my favorite historians, the late David McCullogh, is 1776. See how close we came to losing the war. Should be required reading in schools. That’s from an old history teacher.
I am not sure if all of you have received today’s Independent but I was sadden to see the passing of a former Board member and a friend of mine, Mike Kennedy. He succeeded me as corporate treasurer and at one point I was nominated for treasurer to run against him. I politely declined saying that the RCSC was in good hands with him as treasurer.
It is probably little known but Mike fought for years to have AEDs installed throughout Sun City and subsequently saved many lives. We should all take a moment and quietly thank for that.
While on the Board we served together as switching Chair and Co Chair of the Insurance committee and the Budget, Finance and Audit committee.
He loved when I would quote the classics at Board meetings as it appeared we were the only two who had read them.
Good by Mike, it was an honor and a privilege to serve with you and be my friend.
I found his obit yesterday and my heart sank.
I only knew him from speaking with him from time to time before and after board meetings.
He was unbelievably intelligent and well educated as well as extremely kind. He had a quiet dignity about him although he also had a good sense of humor.
I never doubted that Sun City was in good hands financially while he was on the board. He was someone that you could always trust to do the right thing for all of Sun City.
RIP Mr. Kennedy. You will be greatly missed.
Thank you for sharing this.
Before I get into the minutes of the June 14 technology committee minutes I’d like to ask a question. What was the Pif amount budgeted for technology upgrades in 2023 – 2024,25 etc,etc,etc? Anybody remember? Any Comments? What do you think technology upgrades and implementation will cost going forward? Is 500 grand enough?
Now for the minutes.
Unless I miss something, the minutes were primarily concerned with the website upgrade for RCSC. Nothing was mentioned about technology upgrades to;
Wiring closets - pictures if you have them.
New hardware installed anywhere in RCSC.
Standardization of wiring in all RCSC facilities, including old buildings, and new installation in new buildings. AKA Mountainview.
Development of standards for all wiring closets
Development of standards for all software
Installation of card, access devices to all RCSC amenities.
The use of Face ID technology should be used for all access to RCSC amenities
Security cameras at all RCSC facilities should be implemented and backed up internally and to the cloud.
All RCSC servers should be backed up locally and to the cloud.
WI-FI access at RCSC facilities must be increased, but not to the point that home users can use RSCC WIFI at their homes instead of paying for internet access
like the rest of the world..
Server capacity most likely should be increased both for access purposes and more importantly for redundancy. Servers should also be considered for all reccentwrs synchronized to the main server wherever that may be. Backup is probably the most important thing the RCSC can do for its servers. The cloud is one option, but if the server/servers are comprised or made unusable, the cloud is not going to help.
5G support and implementation
Ability for the new website to conduct POLLS based on IP address.
Why isn’t the IT Manager at the board meetings?
These are just a few issues that have to be resolved before we can enter the 21st century of technology.
I apologize for any Mis-spelling in this rant, but my vision right now is 20/200.
Legally blind in the right eye – my good eye.
Thanks for reading and think about technology in Sun City or lack there of.
of isn’t going get better in the short term and probably in the long term.
I emailed all board members for pictures of the current condition of wiring closets and as of this writing I’ve received no responses and the board President is on the Technology committee. She ran on TECHNOLOGY. Where is it?
Bill, read the post on Group homes and SCHOA. Sorry but the leadership of this outfit is that they couldn’t lead a packing of starving dogs to fresh meat. If you really want to light a fire under somebody’s bottom how about our county commissioner, Clint Hickman. He is paid to represent our interests and he obviously has clout with the County Zoning and Permitting department. Then there is our State Representatives and State Senator whoever these tax fatten hyenas are. By the way Tom, we are not a body politic so the Feds low income housing requirement does not apply to SC. Then last but not least our Congressional Representative, Debbie Lesko. About time she actually does something in our interests other than showing up asking for our vote every two years.
I may have been overly direct but as you say Bill, this is our lives and community at stake and we need all the big guns we can muster to stop this insanity. All I am ask8ng is that they do their job. We start with the alleged group home at Lakeview.
Bill, Mr Contrarian here with a rhetorical question, if the General Manager position has been posted on a Non Profit job site, why hire a search firm? If this job was posted by the search firm what does that tell you about their depth of contacts and their abilities? I hope these clowns were not paid any money be the RCSC.
Maybe it is me but I thought the minimum requirements were a little thin for the posted salary range.
Have a positive day.
For your enlightenment, allow me to introduce you to:
About the National Council of Nonprofits
https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/
Champions for the public good…
The National Council of Nonprofits is the largest network of nonprofits in North America. We champion, inform, and connect organizations across the country to score big wins for nonprofits and the communities they serve
Trends and Policy Issues
Everyday Advocacy
Running a Nonprofit
About America's Nonprofits
About Us
Insights & Analysis
Press Room
Nonprofit Jobs
Read the total long GM position posting, it’s obvious you did not:
https://careers.councilofnonprofits.org/jobs/general-manager-in-sun-city-arizona-us/
HOW TO APPLY FOR THIS JOB
The Board of Directors invite applications for the position of General Manager of the Recreation Centers of Sun City. All inquiries, nominations, and expressions of interest are confidential and will be directed to the search consultant. While the position is open until filled, applications received by the soft deadline of August 11, 2023, are guaranteed full consideration.
A complete application includes (email transmissions strongly encouraged):
Chronological resume
Letter of interest aligning experience with the Position Profile
References (6 minimum to include direct telephone and email)
Send to Search Consultant:
rcsc.gm@cizekassociates.com
Sheila Lehker, President
Cizek Associates, Inc.
2415 East Camelback Road, Suite 700
Phoenix AZ 85016
602-553-1066
Cizek Associates Inc
*********************************
About Cizek Associates Inc.
https://cizekassociates.com/
Why Companies Trust Us
We are different. Our clients tell us we are different – they hold us in the highest regard, respect and trust us, and are confident in our ability to represent them well, attract top talent, and conduct searches that are always focused on their best interests. We believe evidence of trust is in the numbers – over 85% of our work load is from repeat clients. We’ve successfully completed over 1500 senior executive level searches in most industries including higher education, government, non-profit, manufacturing, technology, healthcare, and banking and financial services. It is the mission of CAI to make sure our clients are pleased with the work we have provided – period. Whatever it takes to establish professional relationships and provide outstanding results – this is what we offer, assignment after assignment and year after year, to our client organizations.
Now you know the expertise supporting our search for our GM who will work with us into the future. The job description and our expectations.
Would be nice to know the total cost of hiring this search firm?
Fees vary, typically 15% - 25% of the first year’s salary employed.
Thank you. I appreciate your response.
I wish someone from the board had gotten back to me.
Anon, don’t worry the Board will run some sort of verbal diarrhea about it being a personnel matter and we don’t discuss, blah, blah.
So the search firm, which the RCSC will pay money for their work, idea of a search is to post opening on a national non profit web site hoping to get prospective candidates for GM. I had a very good friend when I lived in Chicago who worked in executive search. They had rooms and rooms of research, files on previous candidates interviewed and a cataloging system that could bring up qualified candidates quickly.
I am sorry but this bunch are lightweights. I would like to know what companies the Board interviewed and how they arrived at this decision. This should be be info for us as it is our money and no personnel has been hired. The RCSC could have posted this position and eliminated any search fee. What is the Board thinking?!!! This is what the new day of member self governance, transparency and professionalism looks like? God help us if the Board has to face anything really serious.
• Acquiring the right talent is
key to RCSC and Sun City’s future.
• Hiring the right person as our general manager is essential.
• Our board of directors recognized this is not a DIY project…as poorly done in the past.
• You get what you pay for!
I too would have liked to have known what other companies were contacted and why this company was chosen. This should have been shared with all the members via e-blast at the very least.
Anon, no e-mail blast, I want them to say it out loud so it is on tape for everyone to see and here. You are either transparent or you are not, there is no middle ground.
Christine,
Again, just like every other topic, you have all the answers. You just can't help yourself by name calling and being such a contraian. As a previous poster pointed out, the Council of Non-Profits isn't a small deal - it's THE place where the best talent searches in the nonprofit sector. This position not only requires that type of exposure, it requires professional assistance in all aspects of hiring. RCSC must get this right. You know this is no ordinary job - if you think it is, you're not paying attention.
We all have the right to ask questions. But it's long past time to stop the juvenile name calling or use of derogatory language. It's beneath you.
Calling a business that you know little or nothing about a "lightweight" by someone that continues to throw around his own professional bonafides really makes you look quite small.
Anon, well it took someone long enough to reply which is good. I never said I have all the answers, you listen to Bill pears9n too much. Further I never attacked the Council of Non Profits and they are probably a very good organization. What I did say if you read between the lines is that a search firm that we are paying money for their extensive experience is posting on their website for our GM job. I am of the opinion that the RCSC could have posted and cut out the middleman so to speak. They are essentially a metaphorical fishing trawler for candidates.
Sorry to bust your bubble but I have worked with executive search firms during my career and this methodology is beyond my comprehension for a position on this level. My company used this format to screen out prospective clerical and entry level positions but positions paying $125-175k leadership positions for $160M non profit.I guess this is the new way to search indeed. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt but if this blows up it’s totally on the Board for this decision.
As I have said before I have a highly specialized skill set.
Yes, Christine, we all know of the highly specialized skill set of which you speak. I'm curious: do you think the Board could just write a comprehensive job description like the one that was produced and then throw it on the Councils' website? Not how it works. Are you comfortable with the Board screening all the applicants, developing all the interview questions, etc. I've worked with a Volunteer Board that did a national search. Biggest mistake - not using a search firm. And our organization was not as complex as RCSC. It didn't go well. And yes, the buck ultimately stops with the Board. I'm sure they are well aware of the responsibility resting on their shoulders. This Board is faced with many challenges - calling them lightweights is uncalled for.
Anon, you made half your point regarding the job criteria. What troubles me is that if they are as successful as they say they are, they certainly have files of qualified candidates for management positions that were interviewed but not successful. Throughout my career I was contacted by headhunters for positions that were not advertised in the numerous trade papers (insurance). Occasionally we had discussions that would update my resume on file.
As I previously stated I will give this a chance and for the record I knew that we should hire a search firm for the position, I just thought it would be a more well known firm.
Christine,
Oops, caught in flip-flop contradictions!
• Today, July 17, 2023, you wrote:
“ for the record I knew that we should hire a search firm for the position,”
• On July 13, 2023, you wrote:
“ The RCSC could have posted this position and eliminated any search fee. What is the Board thinking?!!!”
• On July 16, 2023, you wrote:
“ I am of the opinion that the RCSC could have posted and cut out the middleman so to speak.”
• Also on July 16, 2023 you wrote:
“ As I have said before I have a highly specialized skill set.”
• Humble pie time?
Anon, Humble Pie, “Thirty Days in the Hole” 1972 I believe
7/1723 What did I say after that. That was my first thought when the Board fired, yes fired Bill Cook
Others taken out of context, What did I say in its entirety, kind of changes the phase.
I do have a highly specialized skill set, finance, legal, insurance, construction, budgeting & personnel for major branch office, production & underwriting, clients Fortune 100 companies. Highly specialized skill set as I said. You?
LOL 🤣 NNTR 🤦🏻♂️
"I do have a highly specialized skill set, finance, legal, insurance, construction, budgeting & personnel for major branch office, production & underwriting, clients Fortune 100 companies. Highly specialized skill set as I said." (for the 100th time, maybe more).
Why do i feel like i am trapped in Sun City's own version of a continuous loop Dos Equis non-stop replay featuring our very own "Most Interesting Man In The World" commercial?
Lest anyone think this a compliment, they killed the commercial because Dos Equis sales had plummeted. I guess people grew weary of hearing Johnathan Goldsmith tell us how brilliant he was at everything he did.
Bill, probably the same people who tired of your repeated stories of the History of Sun City, Part One. Apologies to Mel Brooks.
I think the question you will be asking in the future will be”Well, how did we get here?” Apologies to Talkings Heads. It will involve a view from 20,000 feet. The party is only getting started.
I know how we got here Dave. You and i were both part of it; absolutely no oversight of the GM and total control given. It's why history and my retelling it matters. Sun City was built by the genius of the membership; not a general manager. Heading back there will be long, slow and painful.
Nothing that is coming is of any surprise to me. The day the board refused to deal with the million dollar oops on the payoff for the solar told me everything i needed to know. By the way, were you on the board then?
Spot on, “ I guess people grew weary of hearing Johnathan Goldsmith tell us how brilliant he was at everything he did.”
Bill, I might have been but then I was never part of the solar deal to begin with, not part of negotiation, not part of the final vote to install, had nothing to do with the contractor that performed the work. I do remember you were on the Board when that took place, right?
If I was on the Board when the million dollar opps as you took place I will own up to it, the question is will you own up to your participation?
I look forward to member comments and your participation in the coming months as we will see if this new improved Board will be transparent as they say they will be and do the right thing in the face of the unpopular, if applicable.
Deus illud volt!
I was on the board and we in fact approved the buyout...for a million dollars less than you agreed to let her pay them. The minutes are there and you can see how much we approved. They will have little or no choice but to fix the mess we have been left in by boards who refused to hold the general manager accountable...for ANYTHING.
If memory serves me, you've bragged repeatedly about you and Jan being the only ones who really understood the financials. I can go pull the comments out; what was it you were bragging about. .02% of the population understood what she was doing.
If that's the case, aren't you part of the reason the shit will be hitting the fan.
Bill, contrary your spin, I have not bragged about Jan’s comment. It is you that have blown out of proportion. What I want is for the members to learn about financial statements and 990s are not the answer as there are no CPA notes included which gives you a perspective at what you are looking at. I have tried to make time for you but you, Tom Marone and Jean Totten blew me off. Fine I am done with you on that point as with anything financial.
Tom, although you were talk8ng in the area of what if’s, selling golf course, especially if you use the quorum argument, sets the RCSC and anyone who voted for it in a world of hurt. You could not use a quorum as the total membership would have to vote and a total of 50%+1 would be required. This was brought up in the early 2000s I believe and spoke out against it as you would be litigating standing for years. A losing proposition. I am willing to discuss standing and class actions with you to give you perspective, if you wish.
You would be screwing with people’s property values especially if the land is sold to a developer. If it is turned into “green space” nothing much would change since it would have to be maintained.
That should cover it for the moment. Keep cool dudes.
Fascinating Dave, after more than a year of telling us repeatedly what an expert you were/are and always will be; you are going to claim you were unaware of what was going on as the former, former GM ignored preventative maintenance issues and elected to shovel money into the bank.
Wow, just freaking wow.
Wow Bill, what office did that pop out? Considering after reviewing my recent posts i did not say anything about preventive maintenance. This leads me to be conclusion, a little birdie from last week’s B&F meeting is speaking out of class. Since there were a passel of SCA people attending I would say it was one of them. My lead8ng contender iwas the person sitting behind Mesa they complete view of my notes and charts and specifically one that was displayed for all to see. In the alternative the person might have seen the note I slipped to the committee member sitting next to me.
But enough of that, way back in the days of yore when I was first on the Board (2013) and you were also, I asked Jan for a copy of the reserve study and when it was last done. She assured me that the last study was done “a few years ago” and that we adequate resources to cover it. I took her at her word. I later found out (last Wednesday) that the study at that time was seriously out of date and the last one was done in 2018 p, my last year on the Board,and the Board was never informed. As for the pile of cash, what we now know as cash carry forward, that always bothered me as it nevered appeared on the monthly financial statements and was somehow hidden by the CPAs, whom I never liked. It was not until this past May was it revealed the magnitude of the deferred maintenance. When you were on the Board did you ever ask about the reserve study? Do you know what a reserve study is and why it is important? I think not. There will be town halls that will explain this by a person who does these for a living. He is very food and makes it easy for people to comprehend what a reserve study is and why it is important and how it is funded. Be there or be clueless.
So how did we get here? Six years of no assessment increase so Jan could give the members an emotional orgasm at the annual meeting and a ton of deferred maintenance. Now faced with a large problem and a guaranteed increase, a Board member actually said last weekend that we should defer the increase until next year because there isn’t anough time to prepare the members. Nothing like making a disaster even worse. Don’t worry I didn’t vote for that Board member knowing they were clueless.
Why don’t you attend the B&F meetings, you might learn something, then on the other hand you might not understand what we are talking about. This id where the rubber meets the road my man not the SAC meetings.
Have a positive day.
Darn spell check and iPad bugs!
Unfortunately, there will be a lot of difficult and unpopular decisions in the future. We all need to understand our financial situation and I look forward to any education that will be forthcoming. Thank you.
You do make me smile Dave, i have a study dated 2011 in my hands dated Dec 2011 and it runs through 2021. On the other hand, I've never told the world i was the smartest man living in Sun City. Nor have i bragged bragged about being the resident expert on all things financial. While you on the other hand have told us time and time again you and Jan were the only two people who understood the numbers.
As far as who told me what, try reading the board presidents article in the Independent this week and then focus on the interim GM's recommendations for changing how the new budget process will work going forward. You probably know i pay more attention than most so reading between the lines doesn't take a rocket scientist.
Then factor in our failures to address something as basic as technology and you tell me how hard this is to figure out. Bragging about how cheap it is to live here was hardly a blueprint for success. The final straw in this discussion is the abysmal failure to plan for anything over the past 17 years.
Dave,
I am glad that you finally admit to the deferred maintenance. Can you tell me what you mean that we just found out about it this May? I think it was obvious to many of us that things were not kept up to the standard they used to be. (examples: Mini golf carpeting, the lounge chairs at the Marinette pool, the stinky bathrooms at the Lakeview bowling alley, lack of technology EVERYWHERE, no onsite cameras for safety, unsafe water leak in the metal workshop, etc, etc, etc.)
Another question: If Members were allowed to attend the F&B committee meeting, why do you say, "A little birdie...is speaking out of class?" Was this a secret meeting? This very idea that some Members can know information, but others can't is part of the reason RCSC has found itself in this current quandary. And "slipping a note to another committee member" reminds me of when I was in junior high. If there is a thought that is important, then it should be shared with everyone on the committee. Which meeting are you referring to? The latest F, B, & A minutes on the RCSC website are from November 2022.
One last question is about the Insurance Committee. First, I have done a bit of research about Lockton and find that it is a large, reputable company. I agree that it is advantageous to have an office in the area. (I digress here, but that should be the same for our auditors, too.) Back to my question about insurance bids: Does the Insurance Committee see all of the actual bids that Lockton has sought on behalf of RCSC? I have been told that would be a necessary step, especially if the same broker is used for a long period of time. There isn't any reference to this in the minutes of the Insurance Committee in April.
Hope all of you are staying cool and safe! Don't fall down on the dark asphalt or you might end up in the hospital.
Janet
Bill, you crack me up. So you have a reserve study from 2011. A corporation of this size (yes we are a corporation) should have a stuspdy done every 3-5 years. The 2018 study which you do not have and neither do I. The committee was advised by Kevin of its existence. It like the previous study is the equivalent of the dodo bird. There are currently 4,500 items on the preliminary reserve study and that was put together by Bill Cook and Kevin.
Just to straighten you out for the umpteenth time (as Mom use to say), the numbers related to the financial statement, nothing else. Got it?
I was aware of the deferred maintenance and I believe it was extensively discussed during a work session. I believe the board voted not to defer maintenance on large expenditures and increase the line of authority management had for projects under a specified amount. It would take a review of the minutes to be exact.
Janet, I finally admitted to deferred maintenance? When did I ever not admit to deferred maintenance? Nice little rhetorical trick!, you should be in politics.
But I digress, glad you agree on Lockton. I learned the value of long term relationships from a broker and client during my career. As for competing bids from other companies regarding our coverages. This is sort of yes and no. Workers comp there is only company that has our business admitted in Arizona and that is Copper Point. We during receive a quote annually based on our experience (loss runs) which is then calculated into an experience mod which produces the quote. As for other c9verages, some companies decline to quote and Lockton advises us as to the companies. Other instances, Lockton advises the companies info is submitted and they report to us companies, quotes and conditions if any. To cut down on paper, real or digital, I take notes(as do everyone else), on this information.
At the first meeting of the renewal year (it will be March, 2024) Lockton gives an overview of the insurance market in general and then by product line. This would include effects on insurance such as wildfires, hurricanes, earthquakes basically natural disasters. Since they have other clients than RCSC, they can also give us an overview of what we might expect prior to forwarding underwriting info. When non binding quotes (remember the 30 day rule I mentioned) are presented in late April or early May, we are advised of other quotes and conditions that were not in our best 8nterest (too high or restrictive) and the companies willing to assume our coverages with terms and conditions.
Hope that answers your questions. I do hope you come to the March meeting or all of the meetings. They are very informal and the Lockton reps are always willing to answer any questions. We don’t have any guests show up and that is a shame.
As for the B&F meeting, I do wish these meetings were closed for two reasons! One, I believe that it inhibits the free expression of ideas no matter how dopey or insane. You probably learned that on the by laws committee. Second is twofold, while not entirely opposed to open meetings, on this committee I worry about the sophistication of the guests. I see them take notes, which I am cool with that but how it is presented could not be accurate. Example: someone says we should raise sessessment $100 for next years. Although committee members don’t say no there are a lot of groaning, comments under the breath and a loud comment that they are crazy. Guest then hops on the internet and says the committee I wants to raise fees to $100 next year, which obviously not true. I know that Tom Marone comments a lot on TOSC under FYI and he intimated something discussed with not out right saying it. We both know how fast rumors travel here and correcting them is difficult. But hey, I am not the Chair or cochair or not on the Board so I am just another worker bee.
I think that covers everything.
Your comment regarding the financial statement and whether "i got it" made absolutely no sense Dave. I know you and Jan were the only ones in the community to understand what was going on financially, but as i have written many times: The failure in communication typically is the fault of the presenter, not the receiver. Sorry bro, but that's what we were taught.
Anyway, let's get to the meat of the issue here: What freaking difference does it make how often a reserve study is done if no one pays attention to it? The former, former GM just did whatever she wanted and no one (not the board, nor the budget and finance committee) held her accountable.
Instead, everyone let her shovel the money in the bank rather than spending on the items we knew we needed. Does that make any sense to you at all. Holding management accountable is one of the key responsibilities for board members. In that you two were the only ones that understood the complex financials, you were the guy who should have been pounding his shoe on the table.
Instead, you did nothing. By the way; Would you consider that a breach of your fiduciary obligations?
Yes, Dave, I hope to attend the Insurance Committee meeting next March. I have it on my calendar. Once again, let me state that the Insurance Committee should see the bids and responses from all solicited bidders which would probably be at the second meeting. In other words, RCSC should not just take Lockton's word that they had three bids but actually see those bids and responses. An insurance executive who has been in the business for several decades tells me this. He worked for my husband for many years before going with a larger firm. He has a CPCU, CLU, and a few other C's behind his name. He lives in Nebraska but has another home in Sun City Festival so he understands our basic needs.
I can also argue both sides of open and closed committee meetings. Overall I think it is best to keep them open, especially under the current environment. If someone misquotes the work of the committee, the official minutes should clarify things. I think it is imperative that RCSC gets those posted very soon after the meetings. Still nothing on the website from the two meetings the committee had in July. I realize that many times volunteers write those minutes but they should be prompt when accepting that responsibility. If not possible, perhaps a staff member can get them posted.
Ugh, it's humid here this week! Looking for some better temps starting tomorrow. Will be in Chicago on Thursday.
Janet
Janet, have fun in Chi-town, try the pizza and the stuff out here is crap. Not sure what you have planned but try the blues clubs on North Lincoln ave.
I like the Insurance executive thing with the CPCU what stands for can’t produce can’t underwrite. That’s an insurance joke. He also a Certified Life Underwriter. I’ll take a chance that he has Certified Risk Manager, Certified Financial Planner and others I can’t think of at the moment. I am just a lowly AFSB.
I am not sure what to say on this bidder thing other than if you have other brokers and companies in mind, tell me who they are so I can research them. A general statement on the issue doesn’t fly with me as I spent decades dealing with specifics. You have them or you don’t. Ask your husband or any insurance person about working with surety bond underwriters, we don’t fool around.
Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but I spent decades getting to the meat of the matter and no time fooling around. Just the nature of the business. Also ask them if they were familiar with Fidelity and Deposit Company of Maryland. That should give you an idea where I am coming from.
Enjoy Chicago, try the Art Institue on Thursdays, it’s free. Best collection of Impressionist art outside of the Louie in Paris.
I don’t think the real heat has started yet.
Bill, you still crack me up. I like the Nikita Khrushchev reference in your last post. I just wonder how many caught the reference.
I never really understood what was going on financially as I never had the complete financial picture. Case in point the category now described as cash carry forward, which is not a real accounting term. It never appeared on the interim (monthly) statements and not on the CPA statement. I personally called it the Brigadoon money as it appeared whenever the GM needed to. Any explanation of where it was and why not in the state was obfuscation raised to Gold Metal standing even including the East German judge.I also complained to the GM that I thought the financial statements were shit and we needed a new CPA firm. The Board did retain a new firm but they were questionable also. My term was up after that.
How many times have I offered to teach you and the SCA about financial statements and was blown off, so don’t give me the fault of the presenter nonsense. I will still say that the CPA audit report is superior to the 990s because of the notes that are included which gives context to the report, such as how much money was written off in 2021 as bad debt, what was the criteria and what was it mostly comprised of. Get my point?
I was never given the reserve study from when I was first on the Board and certainly not in 2018 when the Board was never advised it was being done.
As for fiduciary obligations, this may be a new legal term for you but Board has both a joint and several obligation to the corporation. You might want to look that up to see if I am apparently responsible for today’s problems.
To get an early jump on things, I am pleased about upcoming road shows for the membership. We have an excellent person who will discuss reserve studies and funding, the budget for next year and assessment increases, if applicable. I would also say that I will not be participating in the last two road shows as it is the duty of Board members to sell these items and not me. I am just a committee member whose position is to assist in collecting data, analyze same, chart a course in my opinion for the future along with other committe members, reach a consensus and make recommendations to the Board. If the Board accepts same, they must sell it to the membership, not me as my duty is strictly advisory. You know this statement is true as you attended the last B&F meeting when I said it, just so we understand each other. Finally, one Board member who was present was seriously unhappy with my statement believing I should be out selling. I learned my lesson last year with the by laws revision in spite of this year’s Board adopting our work piece meal except for the 500 member quorum which I still believe is a terrible idea and will come back to bite the Board in the future. As a final thought, if a member approaches me regarding the budget and fees outside of the meeting, I will gladly discuss but I will not be part of the table show.
I hope you are enjoying the cold weather.
Leon Trosky
It going to be an interesting future few months.
Will the "road shows" be on YouTube?
That way those of us that cannot attend in person can also be educated.
I look forward to this.
Thank you.
Anon, not sure but I would say yes due to importance of the subject matters, especially the capital reserve. To potentially clarify matters the Board in the future may refer to the capital reserve to an Asset Preservation Fund. This would show the members that the fund is for maintains the fixed assets of the corporation. PIF would remainin it’s present form. It will be a lot to digest but the effort will be made to make as simple for everyone.
Good news. I need, and so do many others, to know the financial future and difficult decisions that will be required in the near future. And we need to conduct ourselves like adults in making the hard decisions.
It needs to be on YouTube and also in pdf for download.
Sound finances and wise decisions for the future of ALL of Sun City come first before any wants.
We need to follow the example that the Greatest Generation set. Boy, do I miss those folks!
Thank you.
Brilliantly stated anonymous. Acting like adults, taking ownership, becoming accountable and responsible perhaps over simplifies our challenges...but it will work. Like i wrote on TOSC; "It's The Process, stupid."
For the past 15 years we ran from it, this new board is running towards it.
Bill, Linda McIntyre, FYI , a/k/a Tom Marone, I saw the the posts on TOSC regarding Sun City Holding Corp. It is quite evident that all of you are unaware of its purpose and how it operates. It would an in-depth discussion that is just too long to type out here and I am just a touch worn out from doing my homework for B&F committee. So I will give you some tidbits and I am prepared to discuss in person at a mutually beneficial time.
First, the holding company is a wholly owned SubChapter S corporation of RCSC. I believe at least one of you understands a SubS corporation without googling same. The RCSC holds all the stock in the corporation making them a wholly owned subsidiary. Now if you were read the notes to the Audit Report and not the stupid 990’s, you would learn that it’s balance sheet and that of the SC foundation are combined for a total of $183,000 for FYE 12/31/21 and a net change in assets of $5,700 as of FYE 12/31/21. Alas, due to having crappy accountants, these entities are not part of the audit reports (note only) nor are the finances separated. The accountants did provide a thumbnail sketch of the entities but no real meat. I do believe that most of the numbers mentioned belong to the foundation. The Board is responsible for keeping them off the books so to speak.
Now, while the holding company is a SubS, I am of the opinion that it should be changed into a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC). It would remain the same in its purpose but would be different for other reasons. I believe one you also are familiar why without googling.
Collections are made under the lien. Foreclosure is only worth it if RCSC has primary claim under the title. Look it up.
Let me know if you want to discuss as I am always interested in teaching the membership. Not the smartest or have all the answers in Sun City but as Bill says, I can’t run from my history.
Thanks, Dave. I appreciate both the refresher and more details. B&F has a lot on its plate but somewhere along the way I'd like to understand why RCSC would foreclose for assessments.
We don't need to discuss it in more detail at this point.
So... if somebody is fully up to date with their assessment and dies and there are no leans against the property, leaves their home to the RCSC, I assume the property would be resold thru the SCPH because the RCSC can't sell it without the approval of the Membership?
And you're tell us that those dollars from the sale of that property go to the Sun City Foundation?
That's typically what would happen, but not necessarily. Most people that have a Will would specify a purpose...in that case usually that's managed separately. For example, there could be a general endowment fund ( we don't currently have one) but donors could specify they want it to go there. Usually a savy donor doesn't want a substantial amount to just go in a single lump sum to general operations, they specify. My understanding is that was the original intent of the RCSC Foundation. It could manage a wide range of designated funds for specific funds OR general donations to build a large endowment that could support RCSC in perpetuity. That, however, never materialized. In my opinion, that has been a major lost opportunity. This country is going to experience the largest transfer of wealth in the coming decade or two. People want to do good things and make a difference. I believe there are many people that have very fond memories of parents, Grandparents, aunts and uncles that lived here, and would support all kinds of projects and make gifts in their memory or honor for those still living.
Linda, this is regard to property willed to RCSC in probate. To the best of my knowledge this scenario has not happened. To give you a definitive answer is not possible because there are just many what if’s. Probate can be complicated even with a will as I underwrote probate bonds as part of my career. I do admit it is an interesting question though.
Why foreclose on liens? The purpose was never to throw members out on the street. The scenario most likely to happen is the member passes away leaving no heirs or heirs ( think children) who quit claim their interest. There are no other clouds/memorials (legal speak for claims) on the title just RCSC liens. Now we foreclose and receive an order of foreclosure. A Sheriff’s sale via a legal notice is held where interested purchasers bid. RCSC attends sale and bids $1. Presuming there are others bidders, the highest purchases the property and a closing is held. At closing RCSC recoups the delinquent assessments, PIF, and transfer fee. Now, as I understand it, in the event there are no other bidders, RCSC purchases the property ($1) and receives title. We then retain a real estate agent to handle the subsequent sale. The proceeds would go to general operating expenses would be my guess, but that’s what we have legal counsel for. The purpose of the holding company never was to be a landlord. This is just a thumbnail sketch of the process as there could be unknown interventions.
Tom, I admit that at the last B&F meeting I had little to say other than JeanTotten’s idea of RCSC forming a construction company was at best an insane idea from a person who knows nothing about construction. The meeting was mostly about various spreadsheets we were seeing for the first time.
At the previous meeting, I spoke up about combining PIF, the current cash carry forward (not an accounting term) and and any unspent funds from the current budget with no apparent guardrails turning it 8nto essentially a free for all piggy bank. I was also concerned that the quorum ( it will be approved in September) at 500, there was no way of stopping a few members with proxies doing crazy shit. A majority of the committee present agreed with me and that should be reviewed later. When Les Bethanny agrees with you, a strong point has been made..
The next few meetings are the most important as we will be moving on from the blah, blah, blah stuff and talking real money.
That should covers things for the moment.
Bill, what are the chances of starting a new thread here for B&F and related financial matters. We would have everything in one place and your finger wouldn’t get sore scrolling down.
It's coming Dave, just waiting as we get closer to the September calendar turn.
BTW, still curious why the SCH company's accounting shows on the Foundation's finances. That makes zero sense.
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