Tuesday, April 12, 2022

Ad Hoc Bylaw Committee Meeting Notes from 4/11/2022

Well… not much to report on the April 11th Ad Hoc Bylaw Committee meeting, but only because I was kicked-out!

No…, it wasn’t anything I said. It was because the committee was supposedly going to get into the nuts and bolts of the bylaws and for some reason they didn’t believe they could or would express their honest opinions as to whether a bylaw was good or bad if there were guests in the room!?!?!?

Anyway, there was only one guest besides myself in attendance, but when the meeting began we were asked to step outside while the committee discussed whether or not we would be allowed to stay. A short time later we were called back into the room and told that, by unanimous decision, we were no longer allowed to sit-in at the meetings. We were politely uninvited, but then again, I don’t think we were ever really welcomed? Has anybody ever seen that committee meeting announced when the RCSC sends out their weekly “Your Sun City AZ Week” email blast?

I don’t really understand what threat we impose? It’s not like the guests can speak or offer an opinion? What stops somebody from voicing their honest opinion just because a guest is in the room? And it’s not like anything that’s discussed and approved is written in stone. The committee can only present their report to the board and the board will make the final decision. Everything that happens in those meetings are only recommendations!

So much for transparency! I think I have been fair with my reporting. I have mentioned no names and have made it very clear that these opinions are mine alone. Why now the secrecy? Wouldn’t it be nice to be an informed community perhaps knowing and understanding the thought process of the why and why-not a proposed bylaw may be good or bad? Or simply learning where they are in the process.

Upon completion the committee is intending to publish both a majority and minority report on the proposed bylaw revision. These reports will not mention any names but will indicate how many members were in favor or opposed to a particular amendment with explanation.

One item that took place prior to the start of the meeting did raise a feeling of concern. Again, this is just my opinion and only made based on an observation. I had no dialog with these members regarding this subject.

One of the committee members was pointing out to another member Section 28 of Robert’s Rules of Order. It appeared to me that this was something that the one member, perhaps only recently, discovered within Robert’s Rules and the other member seemed that he was not really aware of it.

Section 28 is titled “Consideration by Paragraph or Seriatim”. Considering by paragraph or seriatim is the usual method for handling a revision of the bylaws or a lengthy amendment containing several sections. Each part is considered tentatively, debated and amended as necessary. “When there is no further debate amendments are voted on as they arise, but no paragraph as amended is acted upon (as to its final adoption or rejection) at that time. After all parts have been considered, the chair opens the entire document to amendment. At this time additional parts can be inserted, or parts can be struck out, or any one of them can be further amended.”(RONR 28:6)

What I find concerning is the fact that each of these committee members were selected on their supposed extensive knowledge in regards to bylaws and the method of amending them! Granted, perhaps Section 28 was a revelation to only those two committee members, but I would have expected that every member was well versed in parliamentary procedure and Robert’s Rules of Order?

I am still kind of concerned with the method they apparently intend to use, which of course may change as they dig deeper into the process. I sincerely hope they take proper consideration when researching and reviewing the older versions of the bylaws. Just because a bylaw was written doesn’t mean its existence was justified. That’s why I believe the first step should be to establish the mandatory headings of the Articles (see RONR Section 56) that are required to satisfy and comply with the basic requirements according to Robert’s Rules. After all, Robert’s Rules is the designated parliamentary authority of the corporation. Then add any and all other bylaws, special rules of order and standing rules that specifically apply to the RCSC.

As always, I commend each and every member of that committee. It is a tremendous undertaking of the utmost importance. But when all is said and done, will the General Membership reclaim their rights of membership? Those rights are to attend meetings, to make motions, to speak in debate, and to vote at their own meetings of the Membership?

And this of course is just one man’s opinion!

Tom Marone - Sun City Advocate

8 comments:

Bill Pearson said...

One can only smile at this report when you consider the most often repeated lament at the member/board exchange meeting just hours earlier was the cry for "transparency." Nope, not going to cast aspersions on anyone, whatever their reasoning was is exactly that; their reason.

I said to Allan yesterday it is a Herculean task and one i wouldn't want to be involved with. I have too much history which tends to color my opinion. With that out of the way, i'm not holding my breath on any of the motions we made at the annual membership meeting making the final cut. We did pass them (by a straw vote) at the annual membership meeting.

On the other hand, i do expect we will get at least half the crap shoveled into the by-laws to grow it to the ridiculous 34 page document it has become put back into board policies. That's all well and good but the real question is; will the safeguards that once helped keep the board in check be restored?

Finally, i like the idea of the majority/minority report being written. I won't hold my breath on that one either, but i would be more that willing to at some point list each of those involved and where they will fall down on whether they were for or against. But hell, i could have done that the day they picked the 5 who were going to do the work.

Finally, i would be more than ecstatic if i were wrong on the last paragraph and if i am i will be the first to admit it and applaud those who had the courage to do the right thing.

Nicely reported BTW, Tom.

C T said...

AdHoc committee is a committee and must allow members to attend!
Per RCSC website:
NOTE: Board Meeting or Committee Meeting schedules often change, and the information in the SunViews may have been revised since it’s publication. For the most up-to-date information, please visit this page often. All meetings are open to RCSC Cardholders.

https://suncityaz.org/rcsc/board-and-committee-meetings/

Committee to Review and Revise RCSC Bylaws Starts Up

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

The RCSC Board of Directors has selected the following Members to serve on the Ad Hoc Committee that has been formed to review and revise the RCSC Bylaws:

Janet Curry
Patrick Gannon
Carmel Scharenbroich
Stella Van Ness
David Wieland
Board Secretary Allan Lenefsky and Directory Kat Fimmel will serve as Committee Chair and Co-Chair. The committee looks forward to getting this important project underway and anticipates providing periodic updates at future board meetings.

https://suncityaz.org/committee-to-review-and-revise-rcsc-bylaws-starts-up/

Tom Marone said...

Thanks C T. I sent the link to the Allan, the chairman.

It will be interesting to see if I get a response!

Stay tuned.....

Christine de Pisano said...

Tom is being a touch disingenuous regarding being “kicked out” of the Ad Hoc committee meeting on Monday. Actually he and another gentleman were politely asked to leave. The reason for this is that Tom violated the rules set down at the first meeting. Allan specifically stated for all to hear”what is said in this room stays in this room.” Tom and Jean violated the this rule twice by posting their notes of the meetings before the committee had a chance to brief the Board.Hence, we decided on closed meetings.

Bill, you are a nice guy and certainly an asset to the community but saying you could do this in a day I personally find insulting. I do accept your kudos thought.

Bill Pearson said...

I have never said i could do this project in a day and explicitly said, i would not be a good fit on this project. All of you that put up your hands are to be commended. I said somewhere along the way, i know a guy who has rewritten by-laws for all the organizations i have been with (except the RCSC, though he did make the offer JE) who has rewritten their by-laws. He's the smartest guy i know. My strengths lay elsewhere. Knowing your limits is always a valuable asset.

As far as Tom being kicked out for violating Allan's rules, why was the other guy asked to leave? We know transparency has long been an issue for the RCSC. Committee reports have been non existent and committee summaries even worse. I suspect we will disagree on this topic, but there is virtually nothing that happens in this community that should be a secret. The one exception is things discussed in an executive session.

Everything changed under the old general manager and it is time to try and restore the tenets this community was built on.

Tom Marone said...

I guess there's something wrong with trying to keep the community informed with what's happening with the rules that they will eventually have too live under?

I don't get it, but I guess it's just me? I would still like to understand what comments I, or Jean made that would jeopardize the committee. I don't mention any names although I believe I do know who you are...and we will probably never agree!

I make it clear that the opinions are my own and I think everybody understands that the committee can only make recommendations and nothing the committee comes up with is final until the board approves it.

Why the secrecy? What are people learning from these posts that they shouldn't know? Just simply learning where you are in the process would be welcomed instead of some generic comment that "we're making good progress".

As a Sun City Advocate I'm labeled as a Hater, but if the RCSC had the same mission to Educate, Communicate and Participate and functioned in kind, then we would gladly disappear but until that happens, somebody needs to keep their eyes on the candy jar...and that jar's not transparent!

Anonymous said...

C de P: If the meeting is open, then all 35,000 Members can attend and hear what is being said. How is that different than 1 person attending and then telling the other 34,999? There is no such thing as "what is said in this room stays in this room" in an open meeting. And you're one of the people re-writing the bylaws???

C T said...

Tom,
I sent an email, too. Copied Dale Lehrer, Board president. No reply, yet 🤷‍♀️

Greetings, Director Lenefsky;

Did you really tell two Members who visited your last Ad Hoc Bylaw Committee to leave?!?

You should welcome MEMBERS who are interested in our community and choose to attend the Ad Hoc Bylaw Committee meetings. They are allowed to be present without commenting.

The Ad Hoc Bylaw Committee, which you chair, is a COMMITTEE and must allow members to attend!
Per RCSC website:
( list RCSC references)
Thank you for doing the right thing!

Best wishes,
Chris Tracy
Reference:
Nextdoor
https://nextdoor.com/p/Gy_gWBRCzQjk/c/754552149?utm_source=share